[00:00:02.810] - Chris
Welcome back to another episode of the MRM podcast. I'm Chris
[00:00:06.470] - Brandon
and I'm Brandon. Join us as we discuss business, life and legacy.
[00:00:11.510] - Chris
It's business time.
[00:00:13.790] - Chris
Are you going to do your normal intro like thingy that you do?
[00:00:16.430] - Brandon
I was debating it. Actually, it was like mid mental debate. Do I jump in with Hello, my friend?or not.
[00:00:29.250] - Chris
I can't lie, I'm a little bit nervous about this episode.
[00:00:31.890] - Brandon
I know, I am, too, actually.
[00:00:33.450] - Chris
So, I had a whole game plan, and then the mic turns on and the recording starts and it's like, okay, how do we open this up? So you and I have been watching a TV show?
[00:00:45.810] - Brandon
Yeah.
[00:00:46.230] - Chris
Ted Lasso.
[00:00:47.430] - Brandon
Unbelievable show.
[00:00:48.990] - Chris
It's interesting I start to get a frog in my throat even just saying the words Ted Lasso, which is just weird. Feels weird.
[00:00:55.590] - Brandon
You know, somebody's done their job well, when the content they've created has that much of an impact on its audience. There is something happening with that show that's pretty amazing.
[00:01:04.950] - Chris
Yeah, there's something special about it. I don't know.
[00:01:06.930] - Chris
About three or four weeks ago, when I first watched it, I did a little LinkedIn live because I watched the first three episodes. Like, Man, there's just so much leadership gold in here, packaged into a quirky comedy that you watch the rest of the season and it turns into so much more than that.
[00:01:27.450] - Brandon
Yes, clearly.
[00:01:28.410] - Chris
And then season two, I don't know. Whatever it was, episode seven or eight just lays me out in a way that, like a TV show has never done for me. So you and I watched this episode separately, and I don't remember how it came up. We were on one of our coffee walks, I think, and talking about it, and it came up here. What are we talking about, folks? Well, if you haven't watched Ted Lasso, I highly, highly recommend it. I know that most of us are probably trying to discipline ourselves around how much Netflix and crap we watch on TV, but this is worth your time.
[00:02:10.230] - Brandon
Yeah, it's an interesting show.
[00:02:12.510] - Chris
[ comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUPWomkB4xs ] And to kind of lay the groundwork, you could just watch this scene also, to get kind of a context for where Brandon and I are going, I'll describe it here in a minute. But if you Google Roy hugs Jaime J-A-I-M-E. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUPWomkB4xs
[00:02:29.130] - Chris
You'll see the scene that Brandon and I are going to talk about. Yeah. So the context is if you haven't heard of Ted Lasso, the comedy is sort of wrapped around this Premier soccer team in England, the owner of that team that was awarded the team as part of a divorce settlement with her....
[00:02:49.710] - Chris
I don't know, billionaire husband who ran off with a younger woman, and that whole kind of story. And they were without a coach or they had to fire their coach. And so they're looking for a new coach. And she the owner of the team recruits this Division Two football coach who just had an amazing Cinderella story at this Division Two College football team, American football, mind you not soccer football. And she gets this wily idea to bring him over to England and have him be the head coach of a Premier professional soccer team.
[00:03:29.250] - Chris
And so just the basis of that's so that's really funny and quirky. And the first couple of episodes of him arriving on British soil and having his first press conference, not knowing the answers, not even really understanding the rules of a soccer game. It's just very funny and whatever. Well, you move along. The story of the team. One of the main characters is Jaime Tart, and Jaime is a superstar that had some setbacks. He played for Manchester United, which was more of a big time headlines kind of soccer team had some personal issues, fumbled that opportunity and had to come down to Richland, which is the team that's featured in the show.
[00:04:06.450] - Chris
And it was a real step back for him professionally. Got a real attitude, real chip on his shoulder. Fast forward to season two, we learn more about what Jaime is about. We meet his dad in the scene that we're talking about, and his dad is a real piece of work. And the scene opens up, the entire team is in the locker room. Jaime's dad walks in, he's disheveled, looks half homeless, seems like he's drunk or he's loaded up on something and he's pressing his son to give him access to the field, which is sacred in England.
[00:04:43.110] - Chris
Nobody gets to go on the pitch except for friends of players, the team coach and staff, et cetera. It's sacred ground. And this is one of the only interactions he had with his dad is when his dad's begging him for tickets to games or in this case, to get on the pitch and take some pictures with his other drunk buddies. And Jaime stands his ground. The whole team surrounding him. He's in the middle of the locker room. Dad just waltzes in, asking for the permission and Jaime says no, and his dad proceeds to berate him, belittle him, chastise him, mock him, ridicule him in front of the team.
[00:05:25.590] - Chris
Jaime stands his ground. Dad ups the ante, increases the insults and finally Jaime punches him in the face and lays him out. And the look on Jaime's face in that moment. There's so much shame and embarrassment in his eyes. It was such a powerful moment. First of all, to see what his dad did to him in that moment in terms of humiliating him. And then to see the shame and humiliation just fall over his face. And then the camera pans and you see his teammates and every single one of his teammates is locked in on the scene.
[00:06:06.030] - Chris
And there's just a look of pity and sorrow, sadness watching this go down. And then one of the assistant coaches and a former team member, basically a recently retired superstar.
[00:06:20.790] - Chris
Roy, who was...He and Jaime throughout the whole first season were just enemies.
[00:06:28.710] - Brandon
Clearly
[00:06:29.430] - Chris
Jaime's ex girlfriend ended up dating Roy and falling in love with Roy. And there was just this bad blood between these guys. And in that moment, the camera pans to Roy, and Roy is watching this go down, and the humanity kind of rises up in him. And he's a super stoic character. He's not a touchy Feely guy at all. He walks over deliberately, and he hugs Jaime in that moment. Immediately after this went down, one of the other assistant coaches actually grabbed Jaime's dad and basically dragged him out of the locker room and threw him out the door.
[00:07:06.690] - Chris
And then Roy walked over, and he embraced Jaime. And Jaime just cried and let go. And I cried really hard. In fact, it's really hard for me to watch that scene and not immediately choke up. And I thought about that a lot. And you and I talked about that, like, what is going on there? What is going on there? There's something universal, there's something ...There's something terribly tragic in that scene that you feel in your guts. And then there's something so beautiful, not only about Jaime standing his ground against this abusive father, but then Roy, there's, like a moment of redemption and love and caring where Roy steps in and he sees, okay, forget all of the bullshit that was between us.
[00:07:59.610] - Chris
Like, here's a man that's just been humiliated in front of his peers, and he needs me. I'm getting wrecked just reliving that moment. I'm like, why is this so? Why does this touch me so deep in my heart? What is going on even now? And I think it takes me back...So I think we all have these moments that we've experienced. I don't know that any one of us ever escapes our life without these moments where we've had this deep moment of shame and humiliation, whether it came from a parent relationship or more so, in my case, it came from an early experience in my career. Or a late experience with parents or other family members or a school bully or something like that. But no matter how strong you think you are, how much you feel like you've overcome, there's still this narrative, the self dialogue inside of us that rises up. And sometimes it's even hard to know what's going on. Sometimes it comes out in a burst of anger. So maybe it causes us to withdraw from a situation, to shrink back.
[00:09:18.930] - Chris
But I think every single one of us contends with that inner dialogue at some point in our life. And at some point, certain things pull that file folder inside our mind, and we go right back to that moment. And I think that scene for me, it did exactly that, like it pulled that file folder, and I'm reading from that script. You know what I mean?
[00:09:41.790] - Brandon
Yeah.
[00:09:43.810] - Chris
And so I thought, okay, this is important. You and I, when we talked about this, both of us were like, okay, we need to talk about this because I think this is a universal thing that we all contend with, and I can see how this inner dialogue has affected not only my relationships at work and my leadership capacity, no doubt about it.
[00:10:04.690] - Chris
I can draw a straight line between some of those inner dialogues and some of my limitations as a leader, the things that have really been a bottleneck for me. But as we've talked about before, there is no true separation between who we are at work and who we are at home. And I can definitely draw a straight line between those dialogues and how it's impacted my relationship with my wife, and my children at times. How that file folder gets pulled and what that looks like in a relationship in my marriage or with my kids, or even my relationship to my parents and so on and so forth.
[00:10:37.570] - Chris
Right. So we want to talk about that today.
[00:10:40.510] - Brandon
Yeah. It's a little weird, too, because I think there's an opportunity to share experience with people in a real honest and transparent way so that people hear ultimately from this that they're not alone. Right.
[00:10:55.630] - Brandon
But I think the fear factor for me is when we talk about stuff like this, how many of us are going to respond immediately first with some kind of ego response, protective response, where we don't really want to relate to that story. We don't really want to admit that there's this damage somewhere on the inside that is affecting who we are, how we respond to relationship, how we lead people. And so it is interesting, we feel like the topic is important enough and universal enough for us to address and to at least have a conversation around.
[00:11:32.170] - Brandon
But then at the same time, there is this fear of when we do this is the wrong part can be grabbed onto.
[00:11:38.950] - Chris
Yeah right are we showing our soft parts? It's like a dog who's scared doesn't roll over and show their belly.
[00:11:44.530] - Brandon
Yeah right.
[00:11:45.070] - Chris
They don't want to show the soft parts, they're vulnerable.
[00:11:48.550] - Brandon
It's an interesting topic. And you and I aren't the only ones that have seen that scene and had a similar response. And we've even as part of this, I think coming up to this decision to go ahead and do a show on it is that I think there was also other conversations that we had with people in our sphere. And just kind of explaining the episode or the scene and seeing kind of the reaction we had and getting a lot of nodding heads of, "oh, I can relate," or it leading to more conversation with people finally feeling a bit free to say, "yeah, I have similar experience that is affecting my life and affecting the way I'm leading and the relationships I have."
[00:12:29.230] - Brandon
So it is interesting. I think it has value, but at the same time, it's scary to be honest with stuff like this.
[00:12:35.410] - Chris
Yeah it really is.
[00:12:36.430] - Chris
I can also look back and where I've been willing to sort of deal with these stories and revisit them and kind of move through them, and I still am figuring out the language of how to talk about this. But there's been something healthy about it. Right. And I think, like you just said it... "There's something so powerful about recognizing that we're not alone." Because I think so often we think our experience is unique, our internal battles are so unique to us. But when we verbalize them, like, you and I had this moment with the scene and we're like, oh, okay.
[00:13:12.490] - Chris
There's something about knowing that you are not alone that helps us. It lowers the volume of those dialogues in our head. It brings down the volume in those moments when we know that it's not unique. This is a shared hardship I think that all of us deal with and have to move through. And I was reminded of that, a buddy of mine who I see like every six or eight months, lives here in town. It's just one of those relationships we don't see each other very often.
[00:13:39.550] - Chris
And we got together and compared notes. And what I love about my friend is just how honest he is. He's honest about all the good things and all the dark things, and we can just go straight to just the real stuff. And he and I both related that at the end of our meeting, like, we didn't solve any problems for each other because there are some things in life there is no solution. It just is. It's something that we carry a bit of things with us and there's no solution to it.
[00:14:08.710] - Chris
And he said, But I feel better knowing I'm not alone in it.
[00:14:12.550] - Brandon
Yeah.
[00:14:14.350] - Chris
I think that's our goal for this episode is not to solve your problem, not to somehow quantum leap your leadership because not everything in life involves a four step process.
[00:14:25.510] - Brandon
Yeah That's true.
[00:14:26.650] - Chris
It's like some of these things we learn to contend with over a lifetime, and that burden becomes lighter. We become better at dealing with those moments. And anyway, so that's what we're going to try to do today. I'm going to go and lead out.
[00:14:40.390] - Brandon
All right, man.
[00:14:40.990] - Chris
I told myself I'd be the first mover on this one.
[00:14:44.710] - Brandon
All right.
[00:14:46.390] - Chris
when I watched that scene, the file folder that it pulled was an experience I had early in my career. I was 23 years old. I'm not going to mention the name of this person, but I was working in the laundry business. I was a uniform and laundry sales rep for one of the big, huge laundry companies, big Fortune 500 company. It was my first corporate job, and I had been working for the company maybe two or three weeks, and I was scheduled to go to the sales training, this corporate sales training up in Seattle.
[00:15:18.790] - Chris
I live in Cortvallis. So at 23 years old it was like that first big time job, the kind that your parents kind of proud. You landed the corporate gig, you got health benefits, you got the whole nine... And now I'm going to this sales training.
[00:15:34.630] - Chris
It's paid, I got per diem. It's all these first experiences, right? And I was so excited and I was on the younger side because I've had some sales experience and whatever. And so I was just so proud and excited because I was coming in with some sales experience to this, and I felt confident. And we show up to this hotel, and there's a cohort that I'm a part of like 22 or 23 other sales reps from around the whole region. And so we get into this, it's a two day workshop, and the senior vice President of sales is leading it.
[00:16:12.850] - Chris
And this guy is a larger than life version of Vin Diesel. I'm not exaggerating. This guy actually was a former pro hockey player in Canada, had four or five years as a pro hockey player, and was now this senior VP of sales guy. Good looking, broad shoulders, built like a linebacker, bald, he's Vin Diesel. And I'm a 23 year old kid, I'm looking up to this guy. I'm like, "oh, my gosh. This is a version of what I want to be someday. He's up there talking in front of the group, which I love to do," blah, blah, blah.
[00:16:46.870] - Chris
And so I'm just like, I'm enamored with the whole thing going into this. We wrap up day one, and I'm feeling so confident because the material... First of all, the local manager that I worked for down in Eugene taught me really well. He was a really good sales rep in the company before he became a GM. I was just so confident and feeling so good. I was learning a few new things, but I knew a lot of it. And he gives an assignment at the very end to the class.
[00:17:15.310] - Chris
He's like, okay, guys, I want you to review your notes, review the chapter. I'm going to call on somebody, maybe two people to review the chapter tomorrow when we start class. So make sure you study, make sure you're on top of this stuff. So I go back to the hotel. A few of my colleagues text me and we're like, hey, we're going to go to a Seattle Mariners game tonight. Go grab some dinner, go to a Mariners game because a lot of people are from, like, Idaho or whatever.
[00:17:40.990] - Chris
So let's go to a pro baseball game. I'm like, oh, my gosh, yeah, right. It's just it gets better and better. And so I do kind of a cursory overview of the notes. I feel confident in the material because I've been a previous, like, anyway, long story, I'd had quite a bit of sales experience for a 23 year old. I felt really confident in the material.
[00:18:01.870] - Chris
So I go out with them.
[00:18:03.850] - Chris
And I don't party. I have a beer with dinner, we go to the game. It's fun, it's just a great experience. I come back, I'm in bed by ten or so, I sleep well. I get up the next morning, go to class, and who does he call on to do the review? Me, but I think nothing of it because I like talking in front of people, love it, always have. I'm excited because I know the content, not just by wrote memorization. I feel confident about the content, like I can teach it.
[00:18:34.630] - Chris
And so I get up there, I take my book, I open the chapter, I glance at it for 3 seconds, and I launch into kind of an overview of the material. Within a couple of minutes, he leaves to go take a call. Vin Diesel does...we will call him Vin Diesel.
[00:18:50.410] - Brandon
Yeah, I like it. Okay.
[00:18:51.370] - Chris
So Vin goes out in the lobby and he's handling some important call, and I keep going for like, probably ten minutes. And towards the end, I get to the end of the chapter and there's a section that I whatever spaced on, and so I glanced at it. He walks in right as I'm glancing in the book, and then I look up. Oh, yeah. And then I continue to launch into my review and kind of teaching the concept. I was even giving examples, like from some of my past sales experience, already on the job.
[00:19:22.810] - Chris
I'm tying in examples and stuff. He stops me. He says, "Chris, why are you reading from the book? Did you even study last night?" This is after me, giving an eight minute overview already. Right. And I just instantly I'm in front of all my peers, many of whom are older than me. I'm just instantly this humiliation washes over me, but it doesn't stop. He said, "Chris, why in the world? Why didn't you take this seriously when I said to study? What were you thinking?
[00:19:53.110] - Chris
Do you realize how much you've let down your whole cohort here? Like what you're telling everybody is this class it just isn't worth your time. This isn't worth your focus and effort. Get the hell out of here. Go wait from me in the lobby."
[00:20:04.930] - Chris
I can still feel that moment in my guts, like right now. It was undoubtedly one of the most humiliating moments of my entire life. And I think also what made it so powerful is the deep feeling of being misunderstood, because it wasn't as though I just winged it.
[00:20:29.110] - Chris
I just was cavalier about it or reckless. It was, I genuinely felt that I understood the material. I understood the material, and I had no feeling that I had blown it off or anything of that kind. So then to be dressed down in front of your peers, it was just a double whammy.
[00:20:50.830] - Brandon
Well, mind you, he was gone for the vast majority of the discussion, which adds to that element of misunderstood.
[00:21:00.910] - Chris
There was a little bit of defensiveness, but I don't even remember feeling defensive at all. I was just wrecked. I was wrecked. And then I was afraid because here's a person of authority, and he meets me out in the lobby and he says, "hey, Chris, I just don't get it. I can't imagine why you would be so... You would blow something like this off. I mean, really, how hard is it to just review a chapter and prepare, write some notes?" "I felt like I knew the material."
[00:21:24.850] - Chris
" Well clearly you didn't, since you were reading the book, reading out of the book." I was basically speechless and then afraid I was going to lose my job
[00:21:34.450] - Brandon
Yeah if you talk back.
[00:21:35.890] - Chris
Yeah, right. And so I was just really humbly... I'm like, "okay, I'm sorry. I'll be better." Oh, gosh, that moment, that moment boy. And it's funny how it's shown up in my life since then. I was 23 years old, I'm 41 now, and of course, it's had less and less control over me. The more as I've gotten older, and I've taken a look at this. And even just the process of saying this out loud is helpful to me, like sharing this story with others and then hearing other people that have had similar kinds of experiences with people in their life is.... Like I said, knowing I'm not alone in those experiences and those feelings that I have with them, has been important. But man, that altered the course of my life a little bit. I don't know how right? We look back on those moments... Like, I don't know what would have been if I hadn't had that experience.
[00:22:31.270] - Chris
I think in some ways it's fortified me.
[00:22:34.450] - Brandon
Yeah
[00:22:34.450] - Chris
I think in other ways it's made me incredibly sensitive to others, which has had some drawbacks. There's two edges on every sword. Right? I think in some ways it's made me incredibly sensitive to other people's feelings and not ever wanting to make other people feel that way, that's good. It's also caused me to shrink away from difficult conversations with others for fear of what they'll think of me because... which isn't even logical based on the story. But it's just interesting how we react, and we're affected by those moments.
[00:23:08.830] - Chris
It's not even always logical, like the dots don't always even connect with what the impact was to the actual story, the actual experience. It has all these weird, scattered effects. It shows up in our just weird behaviors.
[00:23:25.210] - Chris
All right, let's take a minute to recognize and thank our MIT/REST MASTERY sponsor, Xcelerate Restoration Software. And I'm fully aware, by the way, that when I say those last two words, restoration software that that instantly creates heartburn for some of you out there, right? Because we probably all fall into one of two camps.
[00:23:45.910] - Chris
When it comes to software, we've either cobbled together kind of a version of free website tools and spreadsheets just to make our business work. Or we're in the camp where we've adopted one of these existing restoration platforms, one that has all the bells and whistles and supposedly does it all. But we can't get our team to consistently adopt it and input information to it.
[00:24:10.030] - Brandon
Yeah. And that's really where Xcelerate has honed their focus. They've created a system that's simple, right? It's intuitive, and it focuses on the most mission critical information. Ie guys, your team will actually use it.
[00:24:25.030] - Chris
Let's talk about sales. Right.
[00:24:26.530] - Chris
After years of leading sales and marketing teams, the biggest trick is getting them to consistently update notes about their interactions with referral partners and clients. And the essential piece there is there's got to be a mobile app experience. And in our experience, the solutions that were previously out there were just too cumbersome and tricky to use. Yeah.
[00:24:48.790] - Brandon
Imagine, guys, how your business would change if your entire team was actually consistently using the system. Do yourself a favor. Go check these guys out at XLrestorationsoftwear.com/MRM
[00:25:03.970] - Brandon
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[00:25:08.290] - Chris
All right, let's talk about Actionable Insights, owners GMs you can't be your business expert on all things estimated. You might have been three years ago when you're writing sheets in the field, but the industry is always changing and so are the tools. If you're the smartest person in the room when it comes to Xactimate, Matterport, how does that scale you're the bottleneck. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but this is where actual insights comes in. They're a technical partner that can equip your team with the latest bleeding edge information and best practices and then update them with Webinars and training resources when the game inevitably changes.
[00:25:44.050] - Chris
Again, for this reason, we recommend actual insights to all of our clients.
[00:25:48.490] - Brandon
Yeah, three of the kind of big things that stuck out to me when being introduced to AI and their team. First off is this consistently updated training. At the end of the day, these guys are the experts. They're out front all the time. They're constantly learning new trade secrets and ensuring that your team's got access to those things. A 3700 plus page database of exact and templates. I don't know what else to say here other than don't reinvent the wheel. It's already available. Download it, copy it, use it.
[00:26:17.890] - Brandon
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[00:26:43.070] - Brandon
It's interesting, one of the things that you and I are really passionate about is just this development of leadership, right? Not just in ourselves, but empowering other people to experience it and understanding the weight of the influence that we often have based on title or based on position. And just trying to help people really be cognizant of that... The opportunity to steward well, and also the weight of what happens when we make mistakes like they carry weight. And I think your story is a real good example for us to review as leaders to understand the weight of what we say and how we treat people, and the reality that we can make mistakes.
[00:27:25.790] - Brandon
We can at times not have the full perspective, the full picture. And if we're not cognizant of the weight of the impact of our influence on our people as leaders, we can wield that power without a lot of questions, without a lot of effort being put into.... "Do I really have the whole story here?" And allowing these comments or these responses to come forth and have these very long lasting negative impacts on our team members. And so I think your example of... I think it would be very easy to look at that example and see a hard leader focused on accountability.
[00:28:05.930] - Brandon
And that's not really what happened, right? It was someone responding out of a lack of clarity to the true context of the conversation and then ultimately having this forever impact on one of their people. So in that moment, we see this breaking of trust, this damage that's done between a leader and their subordinate in a way that I don't know if you truly have the opportunity to fix it. In an episode a long time ago, you and I discussed a similar circumstance. I think where I was that person I shared to the best of our ability, of course, a similar example of where I think I acted in response without having the full picture. And the likelihood of the sticky residue, the damage that I did, and the way that I responded to that moment. And I think the important thing here for us to understand is the reality of this. This is 20 something years later, and it's a thing that you, as an individual and as a professional have to navigate around. So imagine that. I'm thinking about this as a leader. And you've told me this story a long time ago, and I remember just thinking in my mind, wow, the sheer might the sheer power of influence that we have based on title.
[00:29:28.250] - Brandon
You didn't really know that person. You don't really know what that individual's life is like behind the scenes. You don't even know what you admired about that person, but they fit a persona that in your mind, you identified as influential, powerful, respectable. Really based on title. Based on title, position, and maybe some looks. Right? Which how often are our downlines assigning that same level of power and influence purely based on the fact that we have GM in our title, or we have owner in the title.
[00:30:04.910] - Brandon
And then are we really being cognizant of the power that we're wielding? That we've been given, even if we don't realize it. And then what are we doing with that power? That just strikes me. And of course, it's easy for me to look at your scenario from the outside and be like, oh, wow. There's just this leadership story that I think is very rich for us to be cognizant of.
[00:30:27.050] - Chris
I was sharing this story with a friend, and it was so it was actually really healing for me. It was just another when we share these things, we realize we're not alone. We can take perspective on that situation and almost kind of relive it with a better perspective, by doing that. When I told him that story, he said, "You know the irony of that is the senior leader is leading a sales workshop, and he gets up and leaves the meeting to take a cell phone call. What kind of leadership is that?"
[00:31:00.350] - Brandon
Right.
[00:31:01.010] - Chris
"Was his house really on fire, right? Was his kid in the hospital? Probably not. What kind of leadership is that?" And I was like, I love you, thanks.
[00:31:11.570] - Brandon
Thanks for being in my corner.
[00:31:12.770] - Chris
It feels like affirmation. Thank you. But it is true, right? But in the moment, I saw nothing but his judgment over me. All I could feel is this powerful person just telling me I'm basically a piece of crap.
[00:31:28.850] - Brandon
Yeah.
[00:31:28.850] - Chris
That's all that came across in that moment. I didn't have, like, it was a fight or flight kind of response. I didn't even think to stand up for myself. And be like, "Hold on here. You're the one who walked out of a meeting to take a phone call. How professional is that." I didn't even know to stand up for myself.
[00:31:45.170] - Chris
I look back and there's a part of me. It's like, you know what? I wish I could relive that, right?
[00:31:49.490] - Brandon
Yeah, sure.
[00:31:50.570] - Chris
And not be a jerk, but stand up for myself a little bit.
[00:31:57.050] - Brandon
It's interesting. I'm totally dragging my feet.
[00:32:01.010] - Chris
I felt like you were kind of going into your head a little bit. I know this is hard for you. It's hard for me. What you guys can't see is it's emotional.
[00:32:11.270] - Brandon
Yes.
[00:32:12.770] - Brandon
But again, why is it emotional? Well, it's emotional because it's real life stuff, and it's forever stuff, and it has real life impact. And it's happening at a level that the vast majority of us are not willing to talk about. We're not willing to admit we're defensive, we're fear driven, we're controlling. We're doing all the things to not allow these stories to be lived out, understood and then established context for rich relationship. Why do we do that? We know there's benefit to it. You and I have built a friendship on honesty and transparency, and I understand that part of our loyalty to one another is built on the fact that we're willing to be transparent.
[00:32:51.410] - Brandon
Yet there is this space that we just do not allow that to come to fruition I think in our businesses. We don't allow it to come into fruition with some of our business and professional relationships for a myriad of reasons. So I'm dragging my feet. So here's my story. And the reality probably is that my version of this thing... This is the thing, the anchor in my life. I have a gut response that lots of men and women have experienced some version of this again, from a peer, a leader, a family member or whatever.
[00:33:25.430] - Brandon
So here's mine... Young kid and our family fell susceptible to the statistics, and a breakdown of relationships started to form between mom and dad. And so essentially, by eleven years old, my dad he's gone, and he's pursuing whatever it is that he deems important in his life. However, clearly over the next handful of years, there's just this broken, inconsistent, reaching out on his part to continue to develop relationship, keep life shared between his kids and him. And so, like, a lot of relationships, it just begins to deteriorate right out of the gate.
[00:34:07.430] - Brandon
And I have a lot of, I'd say, characteristics that I've assigned to him over the years of lazy, self centered, you know a P.O.S. Really, if I'm honest. And that went on for years and years and years. He kind of tried for a few years when the divorce first happened, but within I don't remember now, but at less than five years, I think it turned into maybe once a year we were getting some kind of reach out. So as a kid, watching your family be divorced is very difficult.
[00:34:36.950] - Brandon
And I think most of us don't even know what to do with it. When most of us spend our entire life in divorce families, or not understanding what happened and having all these stories in our minds of "we caused it, it was our fault, we're not important." whatever. So of course I'm doing that. And over the years, as a young man, I'm building this armor of I don't need it. I don't need you. I don't need your input. I don't need you to love me. I don't need you to support me.
[00:35:02.330] - Brandon
I don't need you to like me, basically fuck off. And so now, fast forward, I'm in... I think my late 20s, early 30s, probably early 30s. And there's a deployment that happens in my military career. And long story short, you kind of hear through the hubbub through the grapevine that he's got interest again, like there's this curiosity or this questioning that's happening, maybe because of war and because of this life and death reality, maybe he had a moment where he's reconsidering a relationship with us. So anyway, I'll save everybody the drama.
[00:35:34.730] - Brandon
Long story short, there is this weird, broken thing that begins to kind of take form between a father and a son. And I'm trying to mature and provide forgiveness where I think I can as a young man, and I don't know what he's doing. He's doing some version of trying to connect or reach out. Never really any formal apologies or acceptance of responsibility, not ever really communicating anything to any effect around... "Yeah, I messed up. I lost out. I want relationship. I need relationship. It's important to me.
[00:36:06.650] - Brandon
You're important to me," Or whatever. None of that really happened. Anyways, my dad ends up being diagnosed with stage four cancer, lung cancer. And my wife and I go back and forth. This is not terribly long ago. My wife and I go back and forth, and we just realized, hey, he messed up. He did a lot of things wrong, but we have the opportunity to step into that, to be brave and be different. And so my wife and I made the decision that I would actually walk with my dad through the cancer treatments and kind of walk the rest of the journey with him.
[00:36:40.070] - Brandon
And again, it's like just to be Crystal clear from my perspective, I was not being a superhero. I was doing very mechanical hard work to compensate for how I felt. How I felt was he didn't deserve it, and he deserved to die alone. But I didn't want to live that out. And so my wife and I made this intentional decision to reinvest, to reengage, to open ourselves up to more wounding, to walk the rest of this journey with my dad. So the company I was with was very gracious, and they would allow me one day a week, I would leave about midday, and I would go pick my father up, and I took him to his chemo treatments, and we'd be there for three plus hours at a time, just sitting.
[00:37:21.350] - Brandon
And honestly, most of those conversations were this weird, broken, half hazard attempt at two people trying to make up for 30 some years of no relationship whatsoever. And there were times where it kind of felt productive. And you kind of caught yourself grabbing onto this idea of, wow, wouldn't it be interesting to see relational restoration before the end of days with him? And then there would be other days where we'd go to these treatments and he would just be him. And I remember how aggravating it was and how hurtful it was a lot of times to be exposed to that.
[00:37:57.770] - Brandon
Like that I was intentionally exposing myself to that experience. And so there's this constant mental battle of do we continue to do it? Or do I just walk away and say," just lay in the bed you've made." Anyways, we tried to stick it out. We stuck it out, and we went through lots of multiple months of treatments every week and doing this. Anyways, one night, I see a message from my dad on my phone. He had texted me and out of knee jerk, I'm like, oh, Jeez, what's up?
[00:38:27.470] - Brandon
What happened? So I read this text, and I remember that the first couple of sentences, it was like I couldn't comprehend what I was reading because it was so out of context from what my brain was prepared to see. Long and short of it, he wrote me in this text of how if he needed an Uber driver, in his words, he would have fucking hired one. Of course, there's much more text. But basically what he said in this text was," you're still not doing enough. You're not good enough.
[00:38:56.270] - Brandon
In fact, you've actually made me angry with your performance." you know again, setting the stage. Divorced family, a very self centered broken man. Leaves, does just an absolute horrid job pursuing relationship with his son. And that goes on for multiple decades, and at the end of his days, his son decides to forgive that and do whatever that he can. Of course, this is my story, my perception, right, to rekindle and provide love and guidance and do what was necessary to support him. And his response to that action was again calling me out and telling me I was not worthy, and I was disappointing.
[00:39:41.210] - Brandon
I would like to say that in that moment, I saw that text, and that was like, so mature and full of wisdom that I responded really well. But I didn't. I got angry and I threw in the towel. I basically said, "You're a piece of shit. You didn't deserve this in the first place. Now you're actually telling me it's not good enough, which I didn't owe you anything in the first place. I'm out." And then my dad goes on for a few more months. My dad's declining health, and we find out through the grapevine like he's about to die.
[00:40:14.810] - Brandon
And my sister and I wanted to at least say goodbye. And I'm feeling guilt over the fact that I walked and that I didn't continue to pursue that. And we tried to rekindle with my dad, and he basically said he wasn't having it, and he died alone in a house by himself. Anyways, it's just a shit show. It's kind of a circus, and the family is kind of walking through it. My sister and I are talking through the experience. And then finally, the estate settlement kind of comes out and everybody gets their lawyer drawn up letters about who's getting what and what happened with the estate.
[00:40:51.650] - Brandon
And it's not like my dad died a millionaire. There wasn't a bunch of money for us to get in the first place. But it was very interesting reading this document, this legally binding document that was shared with all vested parties, the roles that everyone took, what they were getting or not getting and how they related to my dad's life and his estate. Right. And so in a very interesting read, we found out that, well, first off, my sister and I really got nothing. That estranged, distant family members that were related somehow through marriage were getting most of it.
[00:41:29.030] - Brandon
And all in all, there was this very direct language around my name and how I had no authority to speak or represent the estate. That basically I was not to have any voice whatsoever in what would happen with my father's estate and remaining assets. So again, and at this point, when this letter comes out, my dad's dead. He's in the ground. He is no longer walking the Earth and the very last message that I received.... And again, this is my story, it's my perspective. The last message I received from him was man, yeah, not only are you not good enough for me to spend my days pursuing relationship with you as my son, but you actually are an embarrassment, and you have no right to speak on my behalf or anything related to my life or my assets. Like literally it's in writing. And honestly, that part did not happen that long ago. And so not a fun story, not a fun experience, and it shaped my life. That ongoing saga continued to have power over me my whole life as a leader, as an individual, as a husband, a dad.
[00:42:49.190] - Brandon
And I was blessed....I did have voices in my life that were valuable, that did say something different. And thank God, really. It's critical for me as an individual to know that story and to be able to look at it in the eyes and understand that it affects the way that I respond to relationships with people, not just subordinates, but to peers. Relationships with people that have been my direct supervision or my leaders. It's played out in good and horrible ways. That thing, that story that I have. And again, I understand that story is not unique.
[00:43:29.450] - Brandon
I mean, yeah, it's got its own color. But the reality of it is I know that lots and lots and lots and lots of young men and women have experienced these kinds of stories that shape the way that they're seeing the world. It's shaping the dialogue that they have with a manager, with a client, with a prospect. It's coming to play all the time. And I think the better job that I do recognizing that story and being able to talk about it ,and look at it, and identify the things that came of it, the impacts from it.
[00:44:04.250] - Brandon
It allows me to be a better leader in a lot of ways. Because it reminds me of things. It reminds me that I, as a human, have similar stories to those around me, regardless if they work for me or if I work for them. Regardless if they provide value to me as a vendor or as a prospect or in a relationship. It doesn't matter. The reality of it is these people that we share life with have stories like this. When I'm willing to look at that story and give it definition and understand its impact on my life, it allows me to do the same thing with other people.
[00:44:46.730] - Brandon
I can relate to the fact that my business partner has a story that happened, that I can't control, that he can't control, but it is. Right, wrong or indifferent, it is part of the story. So what am I doing as a friend, as a business partner, as a leader, to take that story into account when I'm interacting with you? Right? Or when I'm interacting with my peers? We promise we don't know that this is....this is not a four bullet points to success. This is more of a here's our story.
[00:45:23.510] - Brandon
Chances are you have similar stories, and you're not alone. You and I were talking about this when we were walking around and I shared a picture story. I'm going to share that. So this was the vision that I had in my mind when I was kind of.... Some things happened recently that gave Chris and I the opportunity to dig up these stories to include Ted Lasso, which is amazing. But I described for you what it feels like if I were to paint a picture of how I feel sometimes in response to this damage that legitimately happened in my relationship with my father. Is that I see this giant hole in the ground next to me.
[00:46:01.010] - Brandon
And as all these accolades, these wins, these little successes, the next sale, an increase in pricing structure, a win on this, a new job, an expansion into a new market, growing profits, growing all these things, there's all these little wins that we're chalking up. And it's like I could just have this clear vision of me accepting this thing or holding on to this thing that represents a small win and then chucking it into this hole. And just constantly being in this state of why is this fucking hole not filling up?
[00:46:41.690] - Brandon
I just keep throwing these accolades and these things into this bottomless pit that I just cannot find the bottom in, so it's always a hole. So I keep looking over here at this experience, this history of all these little wins, but I don't know where they are. There's nothing tangible to hold on to because they've all been thrown into this freaking bottomless pit that I can't find the bottom to. And that sounds so desperate, right? But the reality of it is that is at play, right, wrong or indifferent.
[00:47:12.590] - Brandon
This thing that happened because of the tone that my dad set with me and how he broke the trust in that relationship as a father, has created this thing that I'm constantly trying to compensate for and battle through. And granted through good relationships, professional help, all the different tools and resources that we have available. There are very positive ways to interact and work through these stories that we all share. But I just think that there's more of this at play in our businesses. There's more of this at play in our relationship as we try to develop new leaders as we develop partnerships and relationships with adjusters when we're negotiating on a loss. How many of us stop to recognize the stories that are at play, right?
[00:47:56.810] - Brandon
Like it seems so heady, and I don't think we walk away from this conversation tomorrow and we do everything differently. But I think there's an awareness that's required that A we have these stories, B we're not alone and we're not so unique that someone else hasn't experienced a similar story or at least an impact that was similar. And if those are things are true, then C, what do we do with them? How do we allow them to affect change in the way we lead people?
[00:48:29.990] - Brandon
In The way we negotiate? In the way that we develop relationships? And the way that we prioritize certain things about our business and our lives? I don't think there's a four point outline, but I think this awareness is beneficial.
[00:48:46.010] - Chris
Yeah, I do see you, man. I think there is something important about us being honest with ourselves and just allowing ourselves to feel those things about those experiences. And just recognize there was harm done. It doesn't define me.
[00:49:01.190] - Brandon
Right.
[00:49:01.910] - Chris
But that word picture you gave of the hole it's so true. And I think you and I have encountered this same thing in so many successful, like, really successful leaders. You've had an incredibly successful career. It's like you've mounted up all of these achievements. We've mounted up achievements together, the work we've done. And there's a place inside where none of that matters, because there's still that ringing Bell deep inside there of "it's still not enough.I'm unimpressed."
[00:49:39.530] - Chris
And I relate to that. I relate to that visual because the story that formed in my head with that experience that I described.... Was this, for whatever reason, the quotation marks in my head that I've carried is "you're not everything you're cracked up to be." Somehow, like in that moment, the twistedness of how our brain experiences that moment, like the misunderstanding, the deep feeling of being misunderstood in that moment and humiliated. Because again, I came into it, I was having some success already in the field.
[00:50:15.830] - Chris
I felt so confident. And to have your confidence, just like just a broad sword cut you off at the knees unexpectedly.
[00:50:25.070] - Brandon
I think one of the things that comes out of this for me is that this constant theme that we have when we talk to leaders and their businesses is their frustration with people not fulfilling their full potential. Or not stepping up to the level that they see fit, or not meeting the Mark. And that is such a hard wrestling match as a leader, as a leader of an organization to have anyways. Like, we're constantly in the state of I need to understand my people, but there's accountability and we have to deliver, and we have to produce appropriately, which is so true.
[00:50:58.850] - Brandon
But I just wonder how much more progress. And I don't know this is a question. It's been a question for myself. I can speak to some experiences where it definitely had an impact, a positive impact. But anyways. This idea of when we're struggling with a downline team member, a technician, a budding project manager, or whatever the case may be, and we're experiencing this just struggle and frustration with "I see you and you have the capacity to do X Y and Z, you have all the ability. You have, all the tools, you have all the resources, all the training, just step up and do it. Just execute." And in that frustration, remembering what is it about this person?
[00:51:39.590] - Chris
Why are they self sabotaging?
[00:51:41.030] - Brandon
Why? What is happening in this individual's life? What is the story behind the scenes? Where's the hole? And is there anything that we could do as a steward or as a leader to change that perception?
[00:51:55.010] - Chris
To come alongside them.
[00:51:56.810] - Brandon
To come alongside them and maybe help build the framework so that this person can begin to trust in their capacity. And again, I don't have the answer. I think there are brilliant people out there. I think there's information. I don't think there's a lack of knowledge and wisdom for us to pursue as leaders to understand more about this. But again, I think the starting places... Man, is there a way for us out of default to change from frustrated, you know, damn you for not stepping up and not doing the things I've told you a million times to do? And just stopping for a moment and saying, "is there more to this story?
[00:52:35.990] - Brandon
What is it that's going on in this individual's life right now?" Maybe for a short term moment. But "what is it that's having this impact on this individual, that they can't step through the door that's open for them?" And is there any opportunity for us as leaders to influence that, to change the story, to create a different word picture for this person? And if we do that successfully, is there an opportunity now to watch that person blossom, to step up and deliver at a level that they didn't believe they could before?
[00:53:10.430] - Brandon
And that's really what the problem was. This isn't going to happen every time, and it's not the case every time. Some people are just freaking lazy. But I just wonder how much more often than not, this kind of thing is at play?
[00:53:23.750] - Chris
Yeah, we talk about legacy, right? You and I have been able to help a few people, not tons, some people have been willing to sort of meet us there. Frankly, I've benefited from your leadership in this way. We talked about that. I remember a couple of years into working with you and being a part of the leadership team at that past company. I remember that talk I gave at an all company meeting. I asked you how it was, and you saw something.
[00:53:54.470] - Chris
and you said "You got all the confidence, you got, all the skill. It feels like you don't think very highly of yourself, like your self esteem. There's something it feels maybe nobody else saw it. But I see something there that there's a lack of self esteem somewhere underneath there." I remember that being a really awkward exchange. At first, I didn't know quite what to make of it, but then I realized.... And then since then, this was years ago. Since then, we're connecting those dots with that experience with that sales training. And just me having somebody see it like that outside view, and then me kind of pondering that and looking at that has changed me.
[00:54:42.050] - Chris
But it was a weird thing for you to say. Weird as in the sense of the level at which we normally communicate with our people. You stuck your neck out a little bit, and yet it made all the difference, right. We've had that moment more than once for each other. And you and I've also stepped into that with other employee and colleague relationships, and some of them were transformative.
[00:55:05.870] - Brandon
Yeah, it's worth the effort. Yeah, it's worth the effort. It's like Where's the starting place, though? The starting place is like, look, these are realities to the stories that we all have, and it is at play. It is affecting good and bad. Like you said, there's ways that we're stretched and challenged, and there is iron sharpen iron in these experiences, and they are worth wild. But they're at play, and we can't act as if they're not. We can't act as if our lives are so cleanly compartmentalized that these types of things are not playing out at work.
[00:55:42.230] - Chris
Even in our success. I think success is like the greatest cover. Because it can provide the pleasure, the reputation. Success can really cover it up externally. But it doesn't, in our experience anyway, it doesn't fill up the hole.
[00:56:01.430] - Brandon
It doesn't fill up the hole.
[00:56:02.690] - Chris
It's like in the dark night of the soul, right. When you're having a sleepless night, looking up at the ceiling, when you're by yourself, right. It's there. When you're in your office, you're meeting with somebody, it comes up, it's in the back of the mind. It impacts our thinking. It impacts the way we see others. It impacts the way that we make decisions. Doesn't mean it makes us unsuccessful, right? It means that, i think it erodes. I think it does erode our happiness, but we can pretend to be happy when we've got all the trappings. For a lot of us, right, the boats, the trips, the money in the bank account, the title, all that kind of stuff. It definitely can get us part way there. But of course, that's the rub, it's not the full medicine.
[00:56:54.290] - Brandon
so true
[00:56:54.290] - Brandon
Well, we did that one.
[00:56:56.090] - Brandon
And you guys followed along.
[00:56:57.830] - Chris
I guess what I would offer is there is something powerful about knowing you're not alone. And I hope that whatever we shared somehow made an impact on those, either listening. And honestly, we'd love to hear your story, if any of you feel inclined to reach out. I mean, there's a lot of ways to get in touch with Brandon and I. But I think there's something really powerful of us leaning into a culture where we try to be more honest with one another. Right. And perpetuate that, not just in an industry thing, but just like as leaders. This is a way like that whole iron sharpening iron thing that they talk about in the Bible, it's powerful.
[00:57:34.970] - Chris
And so for those of you that are interested in sharing your story, we'd certainly love to hear it. So I guess I'd throw that out there.
[00:57:40.790] - Brandon
Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:57:42.950] - Chris
Okay. Until next time...
[00:57:44.510] - Brandon
We'll see you later.
[00:57:47.750] - Brandon
Alright, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of the MRM podcast.
[00:57:52.310] - Chris
And if you got something out of it, share it with a friend. Hit subscribe. Hit follow. Leave us a five star review. Thanks a lot.