[00:00:07.370] - Chris
Welcome back to the Head, Heart and Boots Podcast. I'm Chris.
[00:00:10.830] - Brandon
And I'm Brandon, join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead.
[00:00:17.850] - Chris
I don't know what you think.
[00:00:19.220] - Brandon
It was kind of serious.
[00:00:20.670] - Chris
Should we laugh?
[00:00:25.810] - Chris
So we got a fun guest today. I first met.... So Kevin Miller...
[00:00:30.570] - Brandon
Big hitter, this is fun.
[00:00:31.940] - Chris
[ comment: https://kevinmiller.co/podcasts/ziglar/ ] Kevin Miller is our guest. So Kevin runs three different podcasts. One of them is the Ziglar Show. https://kevinmiller.co/podcasts/ziglar/
[00:00:38.710] - Chris
[ comment: https://www.ziglar.com ] So many of you will be familiar with that name. Zig Ziglar is really one of the primary sales thought leaders and one of the originals in terms of culture, personal development, like the way we treat other people. https://www.ziglar.com
[00:00:52.190] - Chris
I mean, really introducing a lot of these soft skills and sales acumen to a whole generation of business leaders. And some of you have maybe gone to Ziglar conferences or workshops or all the things. So Kevin helped the Ziglar family. He knows he worked with Zig and his son Tom and really helped them bring their brand and their content to podcast format. It's great. 52 million views or plays.
[00:01:22.590] - Brandon
Yes, 52 million!
[00:01:24.180] - Chris
Across these three podcasts. Most of those, I think, are from the Ziglar Show, but now they've been so successful. He's created these other podcast shows. Anyway, just fascinating story. Started out as a professional cyclist, really grew a business out of that, was operating businesses from a young age. So we cover kind of the Gamut. This is an episode more about, I think, self awareness, personal growth. There's a lot of stuff I think we can all take away from this conversation, but I really appreciate it. I really appreciated Kevin's candor and his transparency. We get into marriage a little bit here. We get into some of the emotional kind of ego space of being a leader and running businesses. We cover a lot of ground here, and it's really great.
[00:02:10.540] - Brandon
It is, it is...And this is a guy that's been on big stages with big names. He is, in his own right, a real big hitter. And you wouldn't pick up on an ounce of that at.
[00:02:22.960] - Chris
Yeah, there's no posturing, but I mean, listen to some of the people that he's interviewed and presumably some of these he knows that he's talking about some of these people he's actually maintained relationships with. Seth Godin, Charles Cook of Cook Enterprises, the Cook Brothers, Donald Miller, Howard Partridge, Guy Kawasaki, Hallelrud, Cal, Newport, Patrick Lyncione, one of our favorite business authors, Dave Ramsey. And of course, he's actually interviewed Zig Ziglar, which is just so cool.
[00:02:52.710] - Brandon
He's so cool. And you're going to see it in the show. He's just super humble and just really approachable and just wise. A lot of years of experience doing the right stuff at the right time. It's a fun show.
[00:03:05.730] - Chris
Yeah, enjoy.
[00:03:06.620] - Brandon
Let's do it.
[00:03:07.780] - Chris
Well, Kevin, welcome to the show, man. I've been looking forward to this one. Thank you for being here, man.
[00:03:12.600] - Kevin
I'm always honored. I mean, who doesn't like to talk about themselves, you know, and share their ideas and have a good conversation with a couple awesome guys about things that matter. So it's a joy to be here.
[00:03:22.700] - Chris
That's awesome. And it's kind of a law of the universe. We all like to hear our own name and have people ask us questions. I was thinking back in preparation for this, like, how do we know each other? Because it had to feel a little bit like, who's this Chris Nordyke guy? How do I know this guy? I think John Berkwest is our connecting point.
[00:03:37.610] - Kevin
Yeah, gosh, that's interesting. I see his name on Strava. It'll come up and say "people you know," and it has his it's not a face there, but a name that's a guy I knew. He's obviously no longer with us here on the planet. But yeah, that may be I mean, I've known you as I would say you're in my list of people, like the influencers. And I see you and I see posts that you do and stuff, but it's so often I don't know how you connected with people. And it's interesting, especially with Zoom, like what we're doing here, that I can go a long time and not remember if I've actually been with someone in the flesh, if you feel face to face. But, yeah, I was excited to really connect.
[00:04:16.000] - Chris
Yeah. So I think you and John connected through kind of the wild at heart community, like the John Eldridge. You guys were moving in the same circles. Yes.
[00:04:24.170] - Kevin
We had some mutual friends. I think it was John Dale who actually works with Ransom Courage now and then I got to know, I think John Burkas came out to one of my events when he first started working with Saddleback Leather Company a long time ago as well. So, yeah, lots of overlapping relationships.
[00:04:42.050] - Chris
That's funny, man. Well, and then, of course, once I get introduced to you, I was following you on the social. So your background is pretty eclectic. And I feel like I've been able to watch a little bit of it unfold your background as a professional cyclist. But then I guess the thing I latched on to and made me started watching on a more regular basis. When you're building your own home, how many years ago was that? Ten years ago?
[00:05:02.220] - Kevin
14, that's what I'm sitting in right now. And it was a big deal.
[00:05:06.170] - Chris
Yeah, it was. And it was cool because you kind of live blogged it, so to speak. I remember when you built that mill outside and you were cutting trees from your own yard and building tables and all kinds of beams and posts and all that kind of stuff. So you very much are the Renaissance man of sorts.
[00:05:21.450] - Kevin
You know what? I'll accept that. But or I should say, and as my good buddy Randy says, and "not a but, and." I had built a set of shelves before the house. So this was not something that I came into, and I had incredible people, and I got to be a part of it. But yeah, my wife and I designed the house. I did the general contracting, and then I hired guys and then tried to work alongside them the best that I could. It was an incredible experience.
[00:05:48.640] - Chris
Yeah. I think where I wanted to lead off with our time today was I literally wrote the show notes for a podcast we have coming up where we talk about I was listening to Joe Rogan and he was talking about how kickboxers rarely make it in the MMA. I don't know if maybe you heard this episode, but he was talking to I forget who he was talking to, actually. But they were talking about why kickboxers don't make it in the MMA. And it's because they are experts at striking. They're at the top of their game. A lot of them come from Japan, and very few of them make it big time in MMA because they don't have the ground game. They don't know how to wrestle, and they don't know jiu jitsu. And very few of them get over that hurdle because it forces them to go from the very top of their game to being weak and unskilled. Have you ever done jiujitsu?
[00:06:33.230] - Kevin
No.
[00:06:33.820] - Chris
Okay, so I added jiujitsu. There's a feeling of helplessness, and you go in there as a fit person, and I imagine as a kickboxer, it's like going back to that helpless state of learning a brand new skill is really tough. Where I'm going with that is you went from being a sponsored professional mountain bike racer, and at one point you transitioned. You left that you're no longer a professional mountain biker. And I'm just curious what that transition was like for you, going from one skill set that you have highly developed and was a business and source of income for you to transition out of that and eventually moving into media and the different businesses and roles that you have now. What was that like going from the top of your game into a new game? How was that transition for you?
[00:07:20.570] - Kevin
It's a good question, Chris. I grew up in a business home. My dad was self employed, always has been. And that's what he's fairly famous guy and known for being self employed and leading people in that. So that's all I ever knew. Started my first business, worked with him and his businesses as a kid, and then started my own at 15 tenting windows on cars out of my dad's garage or my parents garage, and was always involved in business. And even as I got into cycling, actually, I was a pro on the road. I was a road cyclist, but did elite mountain biking. And then today I'm known more for mountain biking. That's all I do. I don't do the road at all, but I was a pro on the road. But even there, I always gravitated towards influencing people. And that sounds... Because I had something great to offer, and it wasn't so much that, but it was just wanting to.... I like to talk about ideas. I like to build things. I like to grow things. I like to progress with people. And so I'm a pretty good communicator. And so I did a good job, I think, of gathering people around me.
[00:08:21.480] - Kevin
So I did that even in cycling. So by the time I left it, which was 2002, was my last full year racing, so I would have been 31 years old. And at that time, I owned the team. So I had a Corporation, it's where I started my Corporation. A matter of fact, it's still the same Corporation I have today. We never changed the name, IRS still has me down as Trinity Sports Group. I've done 100 DBAs, but it's all through that. But we own the team. I got the sponsorship for the team. I had an elite team. I had a huge club. We had a lot of influence in the region that we were in. I did a weekly newsletter that grew an audience, and we hosted the 2002 United States Cycling Federation National Championships. So shut down Nashville, Tennessee. At the time, it was big six figure budget. I was doing business and stuff. So when I left it and just continued on to business, that wasn't a big transition. But to what you said, my selfimage was that's who I was as a pro athlete. And leaving, that was probably the hardest part to finally cut ties and let it go.
[00:09:27.680] - Kevin
Because when I walked away, I totally walked away. I actually was still in cycling a little bit. I went and did some consulting in Silicon Valley, and we lived out there for a little while, for a big cycling manufacturer. And then I left it and it was gone. And I walked away from it. And I think because it was so much of my self image that then I left, I really left and forgot about cycling for a long time. And even as you're saying, your knowledge of me being a pro cyclist, a lot of people haven't known that for a couple of decades. I don't feel like I did it decidedly, but my therapist would probably say there's a strong reason why I did. And it was because without my self image attatched to it, it was gone. And so my younger kids don't know me as a... They've never seen me in a race, whereas my older kids, they used to go to the races. So that was rebuilding, kind of figuring out my self image, was the big difference. Man I see that with athletes, business people, whatnot, we get so wrapped up in what we do as to who we are, that's no new news.
[00:10:28.320] - Kevin
It's nothing brilliant for me to say that. A lot of people have said that, but I still see it so starkly true.
[00:10:34.360] - Brandon
Yeah.
[00:10:34.760] - Brandon
Do you feel like in that transition, did you almost say, okay, I want to do it this time differently? Did you set out on these new adventures you've had many. Did you set out, though, with this kind of perspective of I don't know if I want to get that bought in or tie my identity that closely to that work? Or was that really even on the front of your mind?
[00:10:54.410] - Kevin
Brandon, I wish I was self aware enough to have had that thought. And I just wasn't. I've got a book coming out about drive. It's called What Drives You? Coming out later this year. And I have had the fortune to always be driven, to always have something to look forward to. I've never had a day waking up where I wish I could just keep sleeping. That's a gift. I literally don't claim anything because it was a privilege. It was stuff I was handed. I have no claim to that. I'm just more and more grateful. However, part of my story and part of my book is I was driving, but I didn't know where the heck I was going. Yogi Berra is well known for driving his players. They're going to the Baseball Hall of Fame. And one of them finally says, man, you know, Yogi, you're lost. And he says, yeah, man, but we're making good time. I actually heard that from David Lee Roth, Interestingly enough, and had to go back and figure out who to give credit to. That was me. And so I didn't know where I was going always. And back to the self image was so wrapped up in what I did and in influencing and leading people, that twice I did consciously try to walk away from that.
[00:12:00.920] - Kevin
I didn't want to be a personality. I didn't want to be on stage. I didn't want the pressure. I didn't want to deal with the ego issues, because I do deal with ego issues. And that made it harder. So that has been an ongoing journey.... That I just turned 51, I feel like and not really until my mid to late 40s, did I start that self awareness. And now I'm sure I don't expect to ever arrive. I think I got some good traction, but that's going to be a journey the rest of my life.
[00:12:29.090] - Brandon
I can respect that.
[00:12:30.160] - Chris
Yeah. I have to ask the question because I think it's fascinating, that kind of the life path you've had. How in the world did you get connected to one of the most iconic sales figures in history? What is the story of you connecting up with Zig Ziglar, the family, the Ziglar Show podcast. How did that come about?
[00:12:52.240] - Kevin
So my dad was born to parents. My dad's parents were born Amish. The whole deal horse and buggy. That's his parents they didn't stay within that confine with that label, but they stayed within the culture, the religion, Mennonite and whatnot. So he grew up incredibly conservative. And to make a long story short, personal development, starting with Dale Carnegie, that was his way out. He got a hold of that as a kid. Other kids are sneaking out girly magazines and he's listening to the 45 that he has to hide because that's not cool with his culture and his family and whatnot. And so I grew up so as a kid, I grew up hearing that stuff. And literally we were living in California, living in Anaheim. I was six, seven years old. And when I'd get out of line, they'd send me out for an attitude adjustment. And I'd have to go listen to Zig Ziglar. I have every right to loathe that voice and that guy. But I saw what it did for my dad. I grew up in personal development. He was always pursuing personal development, went to their seminars. I went to seminars, and he would get us hooked up to help these guys sell products.
[00:14:00.390] - Kevin
So we're at an event, 30,000 people, and you got Zig Ziglar and Brian Tracy and Ollie North and all these people. And he gets us set back and we would help do product, which means we usually got to meet these people. And I struggled with the character of some of the people that I met when they were off stage and Zig stood out. And so it was always a bright light. Zig Ziglar was, it was a voice of reason and comfort in that. And I think it was through my dad. I met Tom Ziglar. And I had become a voice, speaking to entrepreneurs, for entrepreneurs, and got the opportunity to speak for Ziglar, got to be friends with Tom. And again, such a long story short, it was me talking with Tom and just asking some questions and concern about Where's the brand, the legacy of Ziglar going to go after Zig died. And Tom literally was talking... I was here at my house, I was upstairs, I remember it. And he said, "man, will you work with us some?" So they brought me on as a consultant, and I audited what was happening in the business.
[00:15:04.580] - Kevin
Not that I'm Mr. Super Businessman necessarily, but it was just to kind of help him and look at it. I am a good communicator, branding and positioning is a care and concern, and I think somewhat of an expertise. And I found the podcast that had been dormant. They were just putting Zig clips up. It had been dormant for a year and a half, two years, and was still getting downloads. People still searching. And I was podcasting at the time and said, Man, let's pick this up and bring it into a new culture and help the voice. That's where it started, kind of a labor of love, and it grew from there.
[00:15:37.160] - Brandon
And you're at 900, almost 1000 episodes. Did I see that number correctly? Something like that?
[00:15:44.990] - Kevin
Ziglar. We're about to hit 960, I think.
[00:15:49.440] - Brandon
Okay,yeah.
[00:15:50.480] - Kevin
I had done about 100, I think, podcast episodes before that. And now since then, I started a couple of episodes. So, yeah, I'm well over a thousand. I put in my 10,000 hours.
[00:16:02.290] - Brandon
Oh, my gosh.
[00:16:04.310] - Kevin
You could put them in doing really poorly. But apparently I've done a couple of things. Okay.
[00:16:09.340] - Brandon
Kevin, do you ever feel like there's a.... I mean, you grew up, as you said, in this self help, self development arena, literally from the earliest stages. Is there a dark side to it? Did you ever experience something like you're like, this is negative. This is something that we need to be aware of?
[00:16:26.370] - Kevin
Huge, Brandon. Yeah. It's why I walked away in some ways a couple of times, because I do struggle with the egos on the stage. I do struggle with the propensity to if you have an area of expertise, you can so easily fall into that place of you've got expertise everywhere. Because once people trust you in one area, they'll listen to you in other areas. So it's a really addictive.... I was going to say drug, but propensity to go down. And I have struggled with that and struggled with people who on stage have good information than offstage, I saw some failings. But to that, Brandon, I was really judgmental, too. And I've also come down off of that. I thought, well, if I can only listen to perfect people, I can't listen to anybody. Now, obviously, people have to have credibility. But now I do have a lot more Grace with somebody who does have a platform. They do have good expertise to offer, good information to offer does not mean that they have everything figured out. And as I've had, I think I'm getting close to 170 guests on my show. Some of the biggest influences we have, I realized that.
[00:17:28.370] - Kevin
And at first it was disappointing. And now I again found peace with that and therefore found peace with myself in that. That I do have to have credibility, for any of us on a microphone or on a stage or writing a book or whatever. We got to have some credibility. But that can come from wisdom and having gone down the road having experience of things, it doesn't mean that we are the best in that category, and it doesn't mean that we're the best everywhere. And, man, I know some people who are rock stars in certain areas of their lives, and they are train wrecks in others, and we want to think that it relates over and you expect some success to bleed over. But your question is big. Yeah, there is. And I am consistently grappling with it. And I care about it, too, because in the role that I am, I've been privileged to be an influencer and a leader. But I also represent so many. So when I have them on my show, I feel like I got a vouch for these people a little bit or a lot a bit. I'm recommending them by proxy of having them on the show.
[00:18:30.440] - Kevin
And so with what people see from them, that's going to bleed over to me. And I'm in the soup. The only way to stay safe is to stay off the microphone. And well, there you go.
[00:18:41.300] - Brandon
Yeah, it's interesting because now it's kind of come up a couple of times with you already, and it's just this idea of you even saying, like, I wrestle with that ego component. What does that look like for you? Because in reality, you're a big influencer. You've had amazing guests. Your voice is being heard in big ways. But a lot of the folks listening to the show, they're running businesses. They're running smaller companies. Right. But their voice is God's voice in their worlds. So all of us are struggling with this in some way, shape or form. But where does that come out with you? What are the things that you have to tackle to keep that in check?
[00:19:17.120] - Kevin
Again, I'm Super sensitive to it because of my past, and I'm always grappling again that word with judgment. But I think we're in a time period... We were just talking about this recently. I was with a group of people about there's a cry to be authentic. Right. We all heard that, especially the younger generation. They want authenticity, which I dig. And I think that as an influencer that time that you guys, I think, are old enough to have seen too, or if you are on stage, you're supposed to come off like you have figured it out. You have arrived. And I don't think people believe it now and they shouldn't. But how do you balance that, being authentic and humble and all that with, again, having credibility and speaking to Zig Ziglar, he's a guy who did it so well. He's my icon for doing that, for being so humble and being very opinionated and very strong in his viewpoints and strong in his leading. He didn't back down from what he felt like was truth to a degree for folks. And so I've literally been counseling people other influencers. I coach other influencers a good bit and saying a way to do that.
[00:20:22.680] - Kevin
The way I like to tackle it is be very bold and upfront with what you're good at. This is what I'm good at. This is where I can help you. And this is where I can't. And it sounds goofy. You want your bio to say, hey, I'm Kevin, and I'm really good with here, here, and I really stink here. But to say it in the essence of, hey, if this is you, I can help you. And maybe that just alone is enough. If this is you, I can help you. And by proxy of that, if you don't fit these things, then I can't, though I sometimes will go over here and say, and if this is you, I'm not your best fit, but I have a Golden Rolodex, and I'm happy to connect you with other people. And I would say that on inquiries for people seeking my input, let's say, whether that's coaching or guidance or whatever. I probably refer out close to 60, 70% of it to say, man, that's not an area that I'm skilled in. And what I'm also saying is I really just don't care to talk about that. I'm not good at it.
[00:21:17.480] - Kevin
I don't care about it maybe, but here's somebody who's a rock star in it, go with them. And so I'll take who I'm really good at. So I tend to answer that question that way. You've got to be confident and be upfront with what you're good at and have the chops to. But then say this is where I'm not the best over here, or even the fact that there's just people who are better, period. I can help you a little bit. I can give you some counsel there, but I'm not the best. This person right here is a rock star. And I think, honestly, my credibility goes up in doing that as opposed to trying to help in areas where even if I can offer some it's not what jazzes me, and that comes out.
[00:21:57.140] - Brandon
Yeah, I really respect that portion right there. It's just trying to find the confidence in identifying like, this is the space that I'm good at that I'm excited about that fires me up. And you know what? All these other categories, we're going to choose to stay away from it. And it's really hard to get that imposter syndrome.
[00:22:16.600] - Kevin
Oh yeah.
[00:22:16.600] - Brandon
So it's like anything that feels like, oh, well, that will add value, or I'll be able to show them that we're worthy of their time or whatever. It makes you want to chase every shiny object. So I really appreciate that. Just that clarity surrounding, nope, this is what I'm going to stick to, and I'm just going to continue to beat that same rhythm. I need to take that own advice.
[00:22:33.620] - Kevin
Yeah.
[00:22:33.830] - Chris
It feels like there's, and I wouldn't necessarily consider ourselves influencers or that word is just so loaded means different things to different people, but there's a pressure to feel like to be everything to everyone. I think when you break away from the corporate job or a specific kind of single line business and you're doing this other type of thing with the podcast or consulting or coaching is you want to say yes to everybody. That's certainly been a thing that we've wrestled with as well.
[00:23:01.750] - Brandon
Oh yeah hands down.
[00:23:01.750] - Chris
I got a question for you around this, though. I think it's a good follow up is you've had all these iconic leaders. You've had Charles Koch from the Koch Brothers. You've had Donald Miller, Dan Pink, Patrick Lancione, who is a favorite of ours, Dave Ramsey, Seth Go, all of these people. Hal Elrod, by the way, I used to sell Cutco and I sold cutco around the same time that Hal did. What an incredible guy, incredible story... The miracle morning.
[00:23:26.320] - Kevin
Yeah.
[00:23:27.080] - Chris
Henry Cloud. You've had Brian Buffini like you've had all these iconic, really culture shapers, many of them. What have been the moments of truth for you on this journey where you've been personally impacted by something they said or you observed in relationship with them. But as you've built relationships big and small ones with presumably some of your guests, would have been those moments of truth for you that have actually changed you and have affected how you do life today?
[00:23:55.830] - Kevin
I like how you phrase the question. I will give props to Hal Elrod. I got connected with my literary agents through him. So I have special gratitude to Hal for that. It's really the people. I mean, everybody has a good message or they wouldn't be on the show and everybody has big followings that for the most part that I have on the show. The ones that stand out are the ones that just make me think differently about something, which is interesting because that was some primary counsel I was given in regards to crafting a best selling book, which my book is not even out. We'll see if it is, but that was one of them is to not come off like you're the best. Like I have the best information on drive and motivation. I can't claim that...Solomon said there's nothing new under the sun a long time ago and I think it's still true. But there's new flavors, new perspectives. But I got some counsel on the book writing that resonated with me because it was the answer to the question you're asking as far as guests on the show. And they said help people think differently about something.
[00:24:55.790] - Kevin
It's when you take a topic, it doesn't mean you have to be contrarian. It doesn't mean you have to come up with something. And I do see people go overboard with that. They're going for shock value and being contrary and just trying to get attention. That's not legitimate to me. And yet have some other ones who really made me think different. Those are the ones that will stand out and sometimes I don't even know it until we do the show. I've read their book, I've looked at their stuff and I'm asking questions. And just like you guys and I love that. I'm paid to be a student. I'm paid to read somebody's awesome book and to go, okay, I got this question. Here it is. And I think other people do too, and apparently they have, it will come out. take a guy like Ben Hardy. I'm a fan of Ben Doctor Benjamin Hardy. So first book that I had him on about was Willpower doesn't work. The title alone is interesting because Willpower and thinking, man, are you kidding? That's my jam right there. That's how you be a pro cyclist. You kill yourself and you don't quit.
[00:25:52.410] - Kevin
And you don't back down, you give over 100%. So I was intrigued. And he's saying, and willpower is finite. We think of it as infinite. But here's the proof. Experientially at least that it's finite. This is why in the morning, it's not so hard generally to withstand the Donuts. But if they're sitting in the cupboard at 10:00 A.m., when you're watching Netflix at night, your propensity to fall for that is because it's finite, and he goes through that, and it helped me think of it differently. It was awesome. And I hear I am talking about him again, and he did that in the next book with personality isn't permanent. Same thing he said, the way that we look at personality, I don't think rings true. Those are the people that have stuck. Shanti Feldhan, I talk about her constantly. She wrote a book called the 30 Day Kindness Challenge, and she took kindness and said, we think about kindness, that if we it's the right thing to do, right? It's altruistic. So I'm going to be kind to you guys. And because of that, hopefully you'll be kind to me. And that's kind of how we look at the right thing to do.
[00:26:50.690] - Kevin
And I'll get it back. And she's saying, you're kind because me being kind to you, regardless of how you reciprocate or not, it just benefits me. It just makes me a happier person. I didn't think about it. Totally different thought. So. That's a message that I would love to give to people, because I get about a book a day, on average, close to a book a day per business day, five, six books a week from agencies, from authors. So many of them are really good stories. People did amazing things. But so seldom is really something to think differently on, that to really change, get my perspective and make me rethink something. And I think going back to what you guys said, we're in this arena, personal development, self help. We often spout the same things. And I so often don't see them taking root. And I find that we've kind of confined it into a perspective that's really hard for people to digest. And I'm having fun with my book on taking the task some perspectives that I think I'm not sharing something new in the need for having goals, let's say, or being driven and having motives.
[00:27:57.200] - Kevin
But I think that I even see it in my own family and my own kids who are a lot of my muse. It doesn't take root. Let's talk about that, now let's look at it differently. That's what stands out to me.
[00:28:08.150] - Brandon
I love that. This drive piece, I'm getting more and more curious about it. Obviously, with a professional, elite level, professional sports background, I think discipline and drive. A lot of us can make the assumptions that's certainly something that you've gained skills in. But when you're kind of wrestling with this topic in preparation for this book, what's going on? What are those deep spaces where it's like as you're wrestling with this, you're like, this is a new way to think about drive or maybe some of those things where people have put it in this category of I want more of it, I don't have it. This person's just overflowing with it. What's going on there? I guess just dissect that a little bit for us.
[00:28:46.380] - Kevin
Again, great question, Brandon. And there's two perspectives. One goes back to your question earlier about the dark side of personal development and self help. And this isn't fair. It's not a dark side. It's not fair. I don't feel like but just like weight loss, weight loss is out there. There's a constant demand, there's always new stuff, has really changed that much the dynamics of it? And yet there's such a demand and there's always something new out there. And yet here in America, we're fatter than ever. Just to focus on, way more unhealthier than ever. I struggle some with my industry, that I'm a provider in of self help, that we're putting stuff out and putting stuff out. And are we seeing cultural change? Are we really seeing people make change? And this is part of my own continual burden, or am I just positive entertainment? Again, I continue to find some peace with that because if I'm not somewhat entertaining, nobody's going to listen. There does need to be a factor of interest and intrigue and whatnot. But are people changing? And I really even took that to the point of your question, even to my own family and my own kids, and how do they as my kids have gotten older and we're really talking about this stuff, I can't just spout it off.
[00:30:00.790] - Kevin
They know me and I'm looking at them. And that is one of the questions you asked earlier. That's another thing that keeps me really grounded, knowing that whatever meme I'm putting out there, whatever topic I'm talking about, whatever, I'm going to come home and sit down with five to ten family members who know me. And I do live in a glass house in that way. So it literally frames how I phrase things. Can I make that claim or is that hypocritical? And you'll see that a lot in my shows and stuff is saying, hey, this is something that's really important. I think it's the truth. I really struggle with following it. Let's talk about it together. I'm on the path there as well. But are people changing at the end of the day? Are they really changing? Are we hearing this stuff and making change? Or again, is it just kind of make us feel good and fluffy feathers a little bit? And again, it's not fair because somebody can listen and not make a change for a decade and it keeps the fires burning in some time. And then finally it takes root. And I've been guilty of pressing people and even myself when they need to have their own process with regard to drive.
[00:31:06.110] - Chris
Is it something that we all are just wired with a certain amount of native drivers? It's something you can cultivate? Are there practices that you've discovered or in your research you've uncovered that like ways we can cultivate to increase our internal drive?
[00:31:19.230] - Kevin
Yeah. That question that you're asking, Chris, I have cited as the Holy grail question for a long time, and I have asked so many of my guests during the show their thoughts on that. I remember asking Skip Pritchard. The guy has a book and a following, and he has a story of growing up in a home where they brought his parents, brought in people off the streets to help. That was their Ministry. And so he got to see people, and he talked about that. Here's guy A and Guy B, look like twins as far as their upbringing, the bad story, the abuse, the neglect.... Bring them into their home. And after so long, Guy A changed his life, changed his life, and he goes on and he's the next success story. Other dude, no difference, man. He's there for a time goes off. I asked him that question, so what was it? What did you see in him? "I don't know. All those years, it's really hard." He kind of came back to "some of them. I felt like maybe the ones who progressed had more of a..." This is my paraphrasing, more of a "prosperity mentality, not as much of a victim feeling as opposed to a scarcity."
[00:32:25.630] - Kevin
But then to answer your question with my book, am I coming out and claiming like, man, I found the formula. A little and saying, can you cultivate it? And I see people because I've gotten to see Guy A and Guy B on my show or Woman A woman B on my show. And to see this person came from it wasn't a real hard story, and here they are. This person came from a real hard story, and here they are in a similar place. And there seems to be we all are influenced by the same factors, genetics, our upbringing, our environment after that, the culture that we're in and what we think we want, what the expectations are. Those exist for all of that, and out of that then comes what we think we want and whether that's authentic or not. And I see the people that we would say are driven as people who have become aware of those things to some degree. Even with my drive, even though it's been errant sometimes, I did have a great privileged upbringing that helped me be at least fairly aware of my values, which that's at the core of everything.
[00:33:32.870] - Kevin
If I get to the bottom of my book and my concern, I want people to know what their values are and to commit to this because I think it's what makes the happiest people and the most productive people but to do that is a big deal, to be aware of all the things that influence our values. So that is what my book goes through and say, here's the influencers, here's what you need to become aware of, and here's how you can come out with the opportunity to be driven. And I go back to my aspect of thinking differently about things. That is a primary piece of me pulling people to think differently, because we do, and I feel very confident in this. We as a culture myself, most people we tend to think of Gal A is driven, gal B is not. Like they got it genetically. I don't know, for whatever. We don't know some reason they're driven and they're not. And I'm looking even again at my kids and going, they all have drive in them. And you look at every story and you see that this person had... Ben Hardy again, he's the lead story in my book because his story came out in one of my shows.
[00:34:35.770] - Kevin
He just said it in a sentence, and I made him come back on a show to talk about his own life story because he had nothing. They'll talk about the least driven and the least prospects for any possible hope. And then it changed. And it wasn't some big catalyst. It wasn't even a great story, which is why I use it as my first story, because it shows that going from not driven to driven, there are some things in there. Here's some ingredients, and it's not something it's not a supernatural thing. You fell into bad chemicals and came out with superpowers. It makes a good story, but it's not the norm. And when we look at drive and what makes it up and one person's driven, we all have the ability for the drive in there. It's just putting the pieces together. And most people wait until it happens to them. And I think that you can happen to it.
[00:35:22.040] - Brandon
Oh, that's really interesting, I'm looking forward to it.
[00:35:24.970] - Chris
I'm curious about what the values piece is. How do our personal values play into that drive determination? What is that connection there for you? Is it about alignment? Like if I have a keen understanding of what my personal values are, is it that propels me to align my actions with those things and that creates the drive? What is the values connection?
[00:35:45.560] - Kevin
No, you said it. Well, Chris, you said it in some sense there. How I came into it was, I think, a gratitude for having values and how that did help keep me from going too far astray, but also just realizing that's why I... It's fun talking with you guys. We wouldn't be here sitting and talking if you didn't. I researched you guys and saw you have values. You could be just doing your business and making a buck. You have values that go deeper than that. And you're trying to use the platforms that you have, the opportunities you have to influence people because again, you could say because it's the right thing to do or because it's also just what makes us all feel better. What makes us happier is happiest to contribute. And you have that because of values. That's who I just enjoy talking with. And I remember years ago, he's actually with my brother, my brother Jared, talking and kind of commiserating and go, man, if somebody doesn't have values, I don't enjoy talking with them. If you don't have values and don't have some specific viewpoints on life in general, I don't resonate with you much.
[00:36:47.640] - Kevin
And that got me further thinking on that. And then again with my kids realizing what I want for them, what I want them to be joyful people, to be contributing people. That's going to come from knowing what they value, and that's what I want for them. And that's really where the impetus to make the effort, to write a book and have a platform, and whatnot came from is what I wanted for other people. But again, I'm going to keep playing with that, not just because altruistic have values and go save the world. And if you want to be happy, wake up with peace and be joyful, which I want you to be, because then you're just more fun to be with know what your values are. And I'm almost just to exaggerate the point, if we look at the key areas of life and you don't have any values, I'm a little bit offended, which is a goofy thing to say. I'm saying that to exaggerate point because I'm a very non offendable person, but I'm just kind of disappointed. Seriously, you don't have a perspective on health and wellness, and it's just not a thought to you.
[00:37:47.060] - Kevin
I don't really understand that because it's what fuels my body that carries my brain in my mind and whatever. And you have no thoughts on that. Can we talk about that? Can I help you? Maybe have some thoughts and some questions on that. And if you just don't care, we probably aren't going to connect well, then and that's even come out with coaching clients. I vet them now for values and passions, because if they don't have that, I'm probably not going to be able to help them a lot.
[00:38:09.340] - Brandon
It almost goes back to what you're talking about is like, I probably am not the best fit because it really just doesn't align with that space that you feel most connected to, right?
[00:38:18.470] - Kevin
Yeah. Here's a funny story on that. I had a lady who I took on a long time ago when I needed the money, took her on a coach. It's always been kind of a family game to ask people guests, what's your favorite meal? Because we're big foodies. What's your favorite meal? And then to kind of play with, toy with, tease them with we're going to judge you on this, which we actually do. And this lady who I was not very effective in helping. She said her favorite meal and she just didn't really have any answers. I don't know, maybe pasta with some butter, because my dad used to make it some before he left our family. And she was just so beaten down that I was not a good fit to help her. She needed a therapist. But it was kind of an interesting analogy to where today I literally have at my website on the coaching intake form of one of the questions I have a couple filtering one, and one of them is that, hey, so if it's a celebratory time, no consequences, whatever, what's your meal? And it really helps me to know, am I going to resonate with this person?
[00:39:13.470] - Kevin
Are they a passionate type of person, even that word, a passionate person, that's who I'm going to resonate with. If they're not, we're probably just not going to gel well, let's do us a favor and get that on the table now.
[00:39:24.020] - Brandon
Yeah, I can still appreciate that, because I think Chris and I often in just our exchanges and what we do professionally. You run into those folks that are just so utilitarian in nature. Is it a yes/no? Does it work? Does it not work? Right, like just very utilitarian. And for Chris and I, those are hard relationships for us to really bond and connect with. And so we would have to say to ourselves, I don't think we're going to be a good fit because so much of what we try to bring is based on this passion, on these things that we're excited about, the whole person. Right. Getting underneath the surface and really wrestling with all these things that affect our business, not just the PNL, not just shifts and things like that. So anyway, I just can connect with that. And it's like, okay, if someone performing at this level prioritizes that, it just makes me feel better about, okay, we need to hold true to that and just understand we're going to have people we relate to because of their passion levels. And then there's folks that we just won't. That's okay. We need the confidence in that.
[00:40:22.370] - Kevin
Yeah. For that person who's utilitarian, man, there's a group that fits them or a person that fits them so well. Yeah, that's a great point.
[00:40:30.210] - Chris
I want to take a turn. I want to get your perspective on something that Brandon and I have been reflecting on. We recently posted an episode on our podcast about anger, and there's a dialogue between Brandon and I just about our own experience with anger and how we've seen it affect our work and our personal relationships. Anger is an interesting topic. Right. Because I think it's a universal emotion, and yet we don't really talk a lot about it. So I'm curious if you're willing, what makes you angry?
[00:41:00.440] - Kevin
Let me ask you a question just to clarify that. So you guys came to this topic which I actually saw on Facebook or somewhere where you posted it, came to it as you were considering it in yourselves? Like this was a converstion you guys are having or you're seeing it in the culture?
[00:41:18.610] - Chris
Both. It's interesting. Our space is the blue collar, the trades, the service industry. Right. So we're in disaster restoration, construction, kind of that whole paradigm. And it's a paradigm that for all of its history, really, it's been a command and control kind of culture leadership environment. And that's changing. I think that's shifting in all industries. Right. But with the instigator for this recent conversation about it was just noticing anger in some of the clients colleagues just noticing how it comes out. Yeah, certainly. And that's where the podcast went was really spotlighting how we've experienced anger and how we deal with it. It's an observation of just I think it's a part of culture. I think it's a part of business culture. But Steve Jobs is an example, okay. Steve an icon, a creative leadership icon. Right.
[00:42:11.380] - Chris
And part of his archetype or part of his persona is the recklessly, angry executive. Right. We have all these examples of anger in the workplace, but we don't really spend much time actually talking about the impact and the toxic residue of anger. Anyway, that just prompted Brandon and I and I think it's something that I think as a business community, we would do well to maybe reflect on more. So that's the set up, what is anger look like for you? And then I've got some follow up questions. But what makes you angry? Where do you find yourself going to anger?
[00:42:47.610] - Kevin
Yeah, man, that's such a huge topic. And if I was to say just the emotion of anger, just the natural emotion of anger, where do I experience it most? Where have I it's at myself. I get the worst brunt of my emotion of anger is at myself for not measuring up to my own expectations, which are completely unreasonable. So you're hearing this. Anything I just said and will is stuff that I have.... I'm probably repeating messages from people I've read and I'm reading I keep looking over here, I got a bookshelf, my personal home bookshelf over on my left here, and counselors and so many wise people on anger. And so from my own standpoint, I think from a cultural standpoint, the anger. And yeah, I've just got to give credit to other people. So I'll tell you my thoughts, but I'm a messenger here of what I've been being taught. It's such an easy one to go to. And underneath that are the real emotions often. And for me, it's hurt, which I don't even associate. I feel like I would say no, I'm never offended. I'm never hurt. And I've had good counseling to show me that yes, I have. I just perceive it as anger, frustration. Whatnot I'm very stoic. I don't get my feathers ruffled for the most part. My wife would say it different because she can. Honestly, though, in all seriousness, the other area where most anger is my relationship with my wife, because she is the one person that I give power to. I don't really any other people, so I don't well, cops, cops pull me over for my latest driving infraction. I get angry.
[00:44:28.910] - Chris
Presumably she knows you better than anybody else as well, right?
[00:44:32.540] - Kevin
She does. And to a degree of unhealth, I am more needy from her, and she has the ability to or I give her the ability to hurt me, then that comes out as anger. So when she says something and I feel again, I'm just my counselor be smiling right now and I feel humiliated. That's a big buzzword that I haven't touched, never spoken to or thought that word until a few months ago. And when I did in a book that my counselor has been reading, oh my gosh, that's it. And my wife can say something. I feel humiliated and I am angry, but it's really I'm hurt. I am hurt. If I knew how to cry anymore, I would. And what a buzzword is. So it comes out there. But again, it's such a big topic. The other side, too, that I thought of when you were given a little background on it, is I could be tempted to say that a lot of what I do vocationally and even here as we're talking, use that word as a leader, influencer, or whatever you want to call it. But somebody that I'm privileged to have, some people who looked at me for some guidance, is that I get angry with the culture and I get angry with the flow of the culture that I see people succumbing to and submitting to and blindly following.
[00:45:48.630] - Kevin
But I don't really anymore. I don't think of it as anger as much as I call it a burden. I think about burden a lot. We talk so much about passion. Do what you're passionate about, which I get that. And every day I'm going to do some things that I'm passionate about, but it may be going for a bike ride, and that's a passion. My work I may be thinking more of. I'm speaking to a burden that I see here that I want to help somebody or somebody's with. And so is that an anger? I do see some things happening out there, but it's hard to be angry without blame, and I just find myself with less and less blame, even. We look out here at the culture, at the marketplace, and things going in a bad direction. People take Facebook. I was talking to somebody about Facebook who was complaining about it yesterday, and I thought, I get that. But from day one, Facebook existed to make a buck. I've not been privy to it, and I'm not trying to defend Facebook at all. But I've not heard them say, you know what, we are next to Gandhi and Mother Teresa in our efforts to serve humanity.
[00:46:50.900] - Kevin
I haven't seen that. I don't think that's in the corporate documents. The people who invest in Facebook want them to make a buck. And they do that by getting our attention. So they're just doing what they say they're supposed to do. And if I don't like what they do, how they do it, and what information of mine they're sharing, then get off. And I say that kind of flippantly. But it is somewhat true. And the stuff that we're complaining about, we're generally voluntarily participating in to a great degree. So without me having full blame there, I don't get super angry. But I am burdened by what I see happening out there, that my kids are prone to the possibilities of sucoming to, and they're part of this culture. And so we speak to that. And it burdens me. So I would put that in the anger realm is the flow of the culture and where it's taking people and where our health and wellness stats are mental health stats. And we can talk about that the rest of the day.
[00:47:42.130] - Chris
All right. Let's take a minute to recognize and thank our MIT Restau Mastery sponsor, Accelerate Restoration software. And I'm fully aware, by the way, that when I say those last two words, restoration software, that that instantly creates heartburn for some of you out there.
[00:47:59.100] - Kevin
Right.
[00:47:59.330] - Chris
Because we probably all fall into one of two camps when it comes to software. We've either cobbled together kind of a version of free website tools and spreadsheets just to make our business work, or we're in the camp where we've adopted one of these existing restoration platforms, one that has all the bells and whistles and supposedly does it all. But we can't get our team to consistently adopt it and input information to it. Yeah.
[00:48:27.290] - Brandon
And that's really where Accelerate has honed their focus. They've created a system that's simple, right? It's intuitive and it focuses on the most mission critical information, I. E. Guys, your team will actually use it.
[00:48:41.940] - Chris
Let's talk about sales.
[00:48:43.200]
Right.
[00:48:43.540] - Chris
After years of leading sales and marketing teams, the biggest trick is getting them to consistently update notes about their interactions with referral, partners and clients. And the essential piece there is there's got to be a mobile app experience. And in our experience, the solutions that were previously out there were just too cumbersome and tricky to use.
[00:49:05.390] - Brandon
Yeah. Imagine, guys, how your business would change if your entire team was actually consistently using the system. Do yourself a favor. Go check these guys [email protected] MRM. And check out the special offers they're providing to MRM.
[00:49:23.950] - Chris
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[00:50:05.440] - Brandon
Yeah, three of the kind of big things that stuck out to me when being introduced to AI and their team. First off is this consistently updated training. I mean, at the end of the day, these guys are the experts. They're out front all the time. They're constantly learning new trade secrets and ensuring that your team's got access to those things. A 3700 plus page database of exact amount templates. I don't know what else to say here other than don't reinvent the wheel. It's already available. Download it, copy it, use it. Bam. Database of commonly missed items. I think this is huge. So many of us can change the numbers by just moving the needle a couple of points and those commonly missed items can make all the difference in the world. So go check them out at Value gitinsights.org.
[00:50:55.950] - Chris
I really appreciate your honesty. It's part of me that really wants to go back to what you said about your marriage. Are you okay with that?
[00:51:05.180] - Kevin
Yeah.
[00:51:05.980] - Chris
I'll tell you one thing that drives Brandon and I is the value of letting people know that they're not alone. I think that's one of our drives in tackling subjects like anger and some of the other things that we touch on our podcast is it's something that all of us feel, but we don't necessarily feel licensed to talk about it. And so when we don't talk about these things right, we can feel really isolated. I think it's a really common feeling for business owners, in particular, because they spend most of their working life in some form investing their energy into their people, and it can be a real isolated feeling. So I appreciate you being really honest about your experience and the counseling that you've undertook, because there's a lot of people out there that struggle with anger. They're struggling in their marriage, and they feel like their unique experience is just that they're alone in it. So when we talk about this stuff, I think there's a lot of it's encouraging to me, actually, to hear that. Oh, wow, you have struggles with your marriage. Even I find myself encouraged by that. What does that look like and sound like?
[00:52:07.880] - Chris
How does that cycle you describe with your wife? What are some of the triggers and how do you move through that or out of that? What have you learned with the counseling and stuff you've been doing.
[00:52:17.410] - Kevin
Man....
[00:52:17.970] - Chris
The triggers first, and then what do you do?
[00:52:20.460] - Kevin
Again, back to I talked before about cycling being a part of my identity. My marriage has been a part of my identity, being a father too. We have a big family, a lot of kids has been a part of that. And then again, when you've got an area of expertise, you're kind of expected to have that everywhere. And then the crap hits the fan somewhere and you can either. I see a lot of people go south of that and go, well, I just feel discredited completely. So I have nothing to offer anybody. I'm gone and we discount ourselves completely. And back to we're overlapping, back to the Grace that I'm finding for people to have areas of expertise. But you know, when I look at marriage and the institution of marriage, and I came to it from a very structured faith based perspective, religious perspective, and I will also with a lot of arrogance, and that was just part of who I embraced for myself. There's a lot of arrogance and overconfidence and uncoachability. And I did that in my marriage. And we're at about 28 years now, and all of a sudden finding that we're almost like a burnout to some of the dysfunction and the codependence.
[00:53:29.300] - Kevin
And I had this you're asking at an interesting time. I had a perspective. I think I was on a bike ride weeks ago of codependence of what my wife and I did coming together. We came together not whole, not really aware, not like you can again, if only perfect people can come together and get married. Nobody can. But we came together to really support some needs that we had that we shouldn't have been looking at towards each other. And so I had this perspective of instead of it was, I'll tell you what tipped it off. It was a Zig Ziglar message. So as I was prepping a show and taking a clip from him and he's talking about the staff that he's just referencing. One horse can pull..... I'm totally making that you'll get the concept, but I don't know the numbers. One horse can pull 1000lbs. I don't know. Two horses can pull 2500lbs. Three horses can pull 10,000lbs. It's just exponential. So that's the concept there. And it's acute, so I've got adult kids who are marrying and whatnot that I want them to come together fully standing on their own two feet between them and God, and then come together with that spouse and together.
[00:54:34.630] - Kevin
And what can they do together as opposed to what I think my wife and I did and I think a lot of people do. We kind of came together. It's kind of one of those three legged races where you both put one leg in the burlap sack and then you're walking along and it's pretty dysfunctional and very inefficient. And we did that. And even though we felt like we were focusing on our marriage because we've spent a lot of time together and a lot of relationship focus, we're pretty much just trying to pull things together, pull the family, pull the businesses, go do things, save the world, adopt kids. We've done everything and not really looking at each other. And you get to a point of in ill health, and I would even say some immaturity, if you don't change things and audit them ahead of time, then you wait for the pain to hit. And either you fail or then you try to fix things then. It's harder then, and we waited for pain to hit. And I've done that. I did that in a couple of areas of my life, my marriage, and again, back to my selfimage in that kind of Superman role.
[00:55:29.940] - Kevin
I'm Kevin. I fix everything. I'm limitless no excuses, which is great as a professional cyclist. It was awesome. That's what got me on the podium. I took that into every other arena. You'd say it works in business some degree, too, but relationships not so well. And it didn't work with my relationship with myself. And then it didn't work with my relationship with my wife. It didn't work with my relationship with my kids. And so I've been unpacking some of that for years now, starting with myself and my kids and then my marriage. And so now here we are growing individually and going, okay, we've got to come together. We're different people and figuring ourselves out now we've got to come together and figure out a different relationship. It's hard to do after 28 years, but it's doable.
[00:56:12.410] - Brandon
Yeah, I can respect that.
[00:56:14.200] - Chris
Oh, man.
[00:56:14.820] - Brandon
My wife and I just hit 25 years. And, you know, man, I wear it proudly. That's a badge of honor, I think, when folks have worked through what it takes to get to that many years of marriage and still have enjoyment and hope for the future of that relationship. Right.
[00:56:31.310] - Kevin
Well, thanks for the caveat. Seriously and still have joy and whatever, because I was privy to a celebration of a very long term marriage, and I struggled with it because they were good at endurance. They'd been good cyclists, they endured a lot of years of misery together. It was hard for me to celebrate that as opposed to what you said, to have that time and still have enjoyment. That's the caveat because especially coming from the religious structure that I have, there's a lot of people that stuck together for that and they stuck together in misery. And I finally realized I don't know if there's a whole lot of kudos just for the commitment, because committing to something and that's not hard for me. If the goal is exercise every single day and only eat XYZ, I've proven that I can do that. I don't enjoy it. It doesn't make Kevin a happy guy. And I better if I have permission to ebb and flow and I find more peace and joy. And as I've given myself more permission to not exercise, for instance, I don't even think about it as exercise now. It's playtime and I keep setting PRS.
[00:57:40.330] - Kevin
It's interesting to watch and consider.
[00:57:42.910] - Brandon
That might be a whole other book my friend. We'll may be waiting for that to come out, too, right?
[00:57:49.000] - Kevin
There are so many books you guys write it. I have the ideas so often, and they're better served for other people to write those things.
[00:57:56.610] - Chris
Kevin, again, I appreciate you sharing about this marriage piece, because I just think so many of us are in inevitably, I think all of us go through that stage of life. My wife and I are coming up on 20 Years in March, and I really relate to what you're saying. So I have a hypothesis, and I want to see if this matches your experience. I think as business owners, many of us, we have all these points of affirmation. And imagine this was true when you're cycling as well. We have these external points of affirmation, people telling us we're awesome. If you're standing at the top of the podium, you know you're awesome at cycling. And it's so easy for that to become the identity of I'm a really smart business person. My customers like me, right? I have billboards up on the highway. I have trucks with my name on them running around timbuktu, people respect me and think I'm successful. And of course, all people are really seeing is what we're allowing them to see. But we get that praise. Then we go home to our spouse who knows us better than anybody.
[00:58:51.010] - Chris
And at times, they're not impressed.
[00:58:54.650] - Kevin
Yeah
[00:58:55.580] - Chris
they're not impressed. So we have all these points of affirmation, people that do what we tell them to do, that employees that work for us and customers that love us, all that kind of stuff. And we go home to our spouse and they're not necessarily impressed with what we're bringing as a husband or as a father or whatever. And there's that moment of embarrassment or shame or humiliation. I don't know what happens. But for me, that was a real serious anger cycle for me. And I felt like I was hearing some of that dynamic right where it's this conflict of who everybody else says I am. And this question, am I everything that people have me cracked up to be? And then the spouse has the real answer, which is, you know what? I could use a little more help around the house. Or you know what? I'm not as impressed with you.
[00:59:40.050] - Kevin
Yeah. Well, I may go a little tad different direction because what you're talking about is huge. But it was also when we're back to the beginning of the interview here, talking about my own struggles with the egos and the people on stage who are lauded for this expertise, and they made a million Bucks. And yet that I'm seeing the background scenes and seeing some issues, character issues and relationship issues that I was very judgmental about. Some of that may be valid or whatnot. But to your specific thing. What happened as a result of that is I was hyper aware of that and hyper aware of going out here and winning the race or making money or doing whatever. And then it not lining up at home. And again, I was super sensitive, really judgmental. And so I took a dramatic amount of pressure home and literally said this as a statement to my wife and to some other people of, "hey, I don't care what some dude has done, success wise. You want to show me the measure of him and show me his relationship and the status of his wife, in essence, and his family." Okay, but hold on there, because what that did for me, though, it put way more pressure than I was capable of.
[01:00:54.900] - Kevin
And I felt responsible. Now I'm responsible for making sure my wife is ecstatic with me, with life, that my kids are doing great, because I'm not going to be the guy up on stage if it doesn't show up on home. And so I took on the role of responsibility for their behavior, their success, their outcomes, which is impossible. And I reached the point literally. It was an acute moment in life right out there in my driveway where I came to my end. Anybody who's been in psychology, can you be responsible for somebody else's behavior? No, it's a death knell. Oh, my gosh. I took this issue that you just brought up and took that home and the pressure that I put on for everything to be okay and to be successful at home. And not that we haven't had some successes at home and successes in our relationship, that really changed my paradigm, too. That's not feasible. And also experiencing some people, men and women, who had success in different areas of life and had struggles in their relationship and realized, I can't just pin all that on them. I've had men and women whose spouses literally just went south.
[01:02:04.650] - Kevin
I mean, they just went off the reservation. So I'm going to blame them and discredit their success here. I did that with I'm not going to name the person because it would be but a big name person whose marriage was a big focal point of their platform. And then they had a big failing. I could not have judged them more harshly. And I'm glad I didn't speak out about them publicly because I would need to go publicly apologize. Maybe I should still anyways, too, because that wasn't fair. It wasn't fair. Now, again, there's tension in there, because when you see the person who's up on stage, especially if they're a spousing relationship, stuff like that, and over here, they're having an affair a day. Come on, there's a balance there. Man I took that issue that you brought up there chris, was really aware of it and took it in a very unhealthy direction as well and had, again, expectations that took on responsibilities I had no business taken on.
[01:03:01.420] - Brandon
That's fair and really honest.
[01:03:03.510] - Kevin
We're in deep water now.
[01:03:04.760] - Chris
I know.
[01:03:05.530] - Brandon
I love it.
[01:03:06.360] - Chris
Took you into the deep end. Yeah.
[01:03:09.230] - Kevin
It's real, man. Here we that's why I don't do a ton of business development in and of itself talk on my shows, because at the end of the day, we're doing it all, but what we care about most is this. And this is what's affecting this. So if we're having coffee or dinner or every Friday, I meet with a group of guys and kind of the focal point is, okay, man, what's paramount right now, and it may be a business deal, it may be a business issue. I don't know what the percentage is. Maybe less than half the time. Do we actually talk about something there? Most of the time it's parenting, marriage, health, selfimage. I'm in a Christian men's, I'm part of a group of some big name influencers. It's kind of a private group. They get together once a week via Zoom or whatnot, and it's supposed to be about business. And again, half the time or more, it ends up being they're talking about the issues in their marriage, parenting and health, and those are paramount. And they're getting so acute with some of these guys. Again, these are Christian, successful businessmen. Some of those areas are so acute, their business is that close to being erect.
[01:04:12.430] - Brandon
Wow.
[01:04:13.000] - Chris
Yeah.
[01:04:14.630] - Brandon
It's interesting. Again, we said about this earlier, we want to be really cautious of your time, Kevin. We really appreciate you hanging with us. And I have to just say I love it when guys like you and you've been so humble. I think we just looked at account a couple of minutes before we got on the show with you and you're at like 52 million downloads. I think a couple of times you said, I have a couple of people that listen to me. So just for context, for those listening to the show, 52 million and counting is pretty impressive. So I want to say I appreciate your voice, though, Kevin, because it's not the Polish, it's not the show. There's a ton of humility in it. There's a ton of real perspective in it, and it is missional in nature. You can hear it. I've caught your shows. We've listened to content that you've created in partnership with Tom, and there is a lot of depth. Chris and I make this joke commonly that how often we see that duck on the surface of the water.
[01:05:12.250] - Kevin
Right.
[01:05:12.510] - Brandon
And everything just looks chill. Everything is very smooth. And underneath the surface, those feet are just going. And so I appreciate your willingness to go there, your honesty and humility in that. As you talk about your real struggles, you just continue to be at the top of your game. So I think it's important for all of us to hear that balance of humility and just being real with these things because they change our lives when we're honest about it and we can be aware of their impact.
[01:05:38.670] - Kevin
Yeah, totally.
[01:05:39.450] - Kevin
And I appreciate that. And to what you talked about, Chris, being isolated on our businesses, that's always been I've seen that as a death sentence for so many. I'm going to say guys, I hang out with guys for the most part, and businessmen more so than women. So there's my context and to see them and when there's no accountability, it's so devastating. And so I have sought that. And I've created a life where I do these shows and I've got kids, I've got my adult kids, I got someone who listened to every show, and I've got my daughter, I've got one of my daughters who does some of the production and posts on my social media. I literally gave her a quote the other day and she says, you didn't say that. Yeah, I really think I did. She said, no way. I've heard that before. Okay, let's go search it. Talk about being in a glass house. And so to hear you guys ask me a question about marriage, what am I going to do? Because somebody who knows me is going to hear and I've got enough people in my life who thank goodness, who know the reality.
[01:06:48.210] - Kevin
So to call to my own authenticity is high, and I think it's such a great thing. I appreciate that glass house aspect of our culture with social media. And I hope that people I keep calling people more and more to relationships and groups and being in cahoots with people because it's so beneficial and it helps us confront our realities.
[01:07:16.140] - Brandon
Yeah, man, it's so true.
[01:07:17.960] - Chris
Okay so I want to wrap up with just making sure we do a solid introduction to the work that you do so that people can connect views, because I really wanted to introduce you to our industry. And I think one of the things that kind of triggered that for me was I've been watching you over the last six months, and I don't know if this matches up, which is something you're specifically feeling like in a certain season, but I feel like I've been watching you evolve in a special new way over the last six months. I think some of the questions or posts you've done about your faith that seem like they're kind of evolving to a degree, I feel like you've assumed a very curious posture, more so in the last six months of just having followed you. And I really appreciate that. And it's very motivation.... It's inspiring for me when I watch other people really shifting gears, moving in new directions, asking new questions and stuff like that. So thank you for that. How can people follow you and what can they get from some of your different podcasts that you do and the product you're putting out?
[01:08:16.730] - Kevin
Yeah. Hey, thank you. Thank you for all that. I like that. I wrote that down. Curious posture I want that. And yeah, I have again, we could do another show just on that. And I have not done away with... You go back to values. My values are still there. How I see them.... I've confined a lot of those. And so I'm having fun talking with people on the microphone, in my members community, in my small groups and my home, and deconstructing some of the confines of those values, still holding true to the values. But let's look at them in a broader way that serves people better, and we're back to the burden I feel. And I think we put a lot of the values that are true in confines that aren't working for people, aren't working in the current culture. Thank you. I like that curious posture. I may use that as well. Most everything I've got at this point, I've tried to put it https://kevinmiller.co Is my website. So the shows kind of live there, social media, so that's the easy one. So from a podcast, as people listen, call to action and place to go, it's https://kevinmiller.co
[01:09:25.540] - Kevin
But it's the same thing. If you go to wherever you listen to podcasts and just type in Kevin Miller, you'll find I have three podcasts right there, though I'll say, I don't know when this is going to publish, but we're in talks right now about combining them all into one show, literally. So it's not a definite it's a probability. But either way, it will still be under my name. So Kevin Miller will get you there, which that's hard fought because that's a generic name. There's a word to the wise, if you want a kid to stand out and have a chance out there, give them a name that actually is a little bit different. It's hard to take a generic name and you can't even buy the website anymore.
[01:10:06.100] - Chris
You could be like a rapper and just give yourself a new name.
[01:10:10.890] - Kevin
But my kids have played with that for sure.
[01:10:13.380] - Chris
It's always an option.
[01:10:16.990] - Kevin
It's funny. We did make an effort. We don't have crazy kid names, but some are a little different enough to where maybe they can buy their website someday or you can find them if you search for them.
[01:10:28.080] - Chris
That's not funny. Well, Kevin, man, this has been really great. And I know you're single dadding-it because your wife's working on a project and you got sick kids at home. Thank you for making time with us and be excited to just watch and continue to enjoy your work.
[01:10:42.260] - Kevin
It's been a gift, literally. Great to connect with you guys. And thanks for the honor, posing the questions and having the conversation. I feel like sometimes I learn as much or more when I'm being asked these questions as when I'm asking others questions. And you make me think of stuff. So thanks. This is therapy, so I appreciate it.
[01:11:03.580] - Chris
Hey, now we'll take that. All right, same here
[01:11:05.990] - Kevin
invoice Me.
[01:11:11.690] - Brandon
All right, everybody, thanks for joining us for another episode of HEAD, HEART & BOOTS.
[01:11:16.190] - Chris
And if you're enjoying the show but you love this episode, please hit follow formerly known as subscribe. Write us a review or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn share it via text whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.