[00:00:07.450] - Chris
Welcome back to the Head, Heart and Boots Podcast. I'm Chris.
[00:00:10.870] - Brandon
And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead.
[00:00:17.650] - Chris
Man, I love this industry. Hey, what's up, dude? All right.
[00:00:24.890] - Brandon
Don't know if people have picked up on this, but if you listen to our shows consistently, like, 90% of them start with me, and you can tell when Chris is.
[00:00:33.260] - Chris
I think that number is going down, bro.
[00:00:34.720] - Brandon
I think it is like the needle is moving.
[00:00:36.400] - Chris
I might have twelve starts to my credit by this point, and we have 101 original episodes. So what's the math, bro? I don't know. I'm getting close to more than 10%.
[00:00:47.660] - Brandon
It was a very focused and well pronunciated, bro, instead of bruh. Did you do that on purpose? Well, are you turning over a new leaf?
[00:00:55.450] - Chris
Seasons change. Like, I'm under no obligation to be the same person I was five minutes ago, and things are changing. That's right. So today we're going to experiment a little bit. Yeah. Maybe go a little bit bananas. We normally have, like, a singular theme. We do. And you and I showed up today, and we're absolutely committed to our studio cadence, but we don't necessarily have a singular thread today. And so we're going to play around with a little bit of a different kind of episode, and we'd love to hear from you what you think about it. One other thing I would say is I like Joe Rogan's podcast. I don't like every single episode. I don't do every episode. The fight companion know not as much, but I think I've really grown to enjoy the organic conversations that he has. I think that's one of the things that makes him really popular is it's almost like you get to vicariously just listen in on somebody else's conversation, and it isn't even so much Rogan and who the guest is, per se. It's just I find it really interesting.
[00:01:50.130] - Brandon
The topics are normally interesting.
[00:01:52.500] - Chris
Well, they're interesting, right? I think what it also too, it just reminds me listening to those long form podcast conversations is I'm not alone. Like, we're all the same. One or both of the people will make comments that I'm like, oh, they think that, too. That kind of stuff emerges. And I just think it's an interesting thing about podcasts and media today. That wasn't really a thing at all. It's like, I think it started on TV with reality shows.
[00:02:17.880] - Brandon
Reality yeah, I think it started with.
[00:02:19.230] - Chris
Reality shows and we're like, wow, this is really weird, interesting, shocking, hilarious to see how other people live. And I think podcasts now, maybe without all the scripting and drama, what was.
[00:02:30.510] - Brandon
The original, do you remember, on MTV, like, the original reality TV called wasn't it where they shoved a bunch of people in a big house?
[00:02:39.270] - Chris
Yeah, big brother.
[00:02:40.570] - Brandon
No, that was later. I don't think that was the OG.
[00:02:43.790] - Chris
I forget, dude, that was early days. I was a teenager then. Anyway, so we're going to dive into that and we got some nuggets we're going to start with and just kind of see and we're just kind of pull back the curtain and you get to whatever, if anybody cares, listen to.
[00:02:58.970] - Brandon
We get going though. Let's thank some sponsors.
[00:03:01.380] - Chris
Let's thank the people that make this possible.
[00:03:03.240] - Brandon
Let's thank the people, Liftify.
[00:03:05.310] - Chris
We've always got great things to say about them because they always deliver. And when there's a glitch, even the CEO jumps on the phone to Troubleshoot and Mastermind. They really care. They really care. And it shows them the results that they're gaining for their clients. It's always fun to work with partners like that. They listen to our input and our clients are winning by using Liftify. It's just really fun. It's been a really fun partnership. Highly recommend. If you haven't gotten a demo from Liftify, you owe it to yourself and to your team to check it out. Because even if you're already using some sort of review, gen tool, podium, bird eye, you know, there's a whole bunch of them. I think you'll be really pleased to see some of the advantages of Liftify. And certainly we've seen the difference in results because we've played with those other platforms in the past as we've been operating in the industry and so have our clients. And there's just a significant upgrade and increase in results that people are getting from Liftify across the country. One of our clients, we've talked about it before, team Gutierrez Surpro, they're the number one review generator in the whole system.
[00:04:09.020] - Brandon
They just broke the thousand.
[00:04:09.970] - Chris
They broke 1000. But when they started with Liftify like three months ago at like 540, in fact, when they presented Zach and his team made they had a custom made trophy built for them as the first serve pro to hit over 1000 reviews. And between the time of them flying in and presenting the trophy and when they posted the pictures and stuff from this celebration they did to LinkedIn I forget who said this, but they added like another 24 reviews to their roster.
[00:04:41.310] - Brandon
They're approaching 1100 now or something.
[00:04:44.120] - Chris
So if you want a team like Liftify working behind the scenes while you sleep to generate and bring in Google reviews that help drive organic inbound leads and phone calls, check out Forward slash Floodlight. That's it, for goodness sake.
[00:04:58.270] - Brandon
That's right. Speaking of partners and other partners, answer force. At the end of the day, guys, our businesses are super dynamic. Things are ever changing. Our workflow changes. It comes in spikes, it comes in influxes based on stormwork or seasonality or just stuff sometimes hits the fan. And one of the cool things about partnering with a call intake partner like Answerforce is it's flexible. You ramp it up when the need is in, the demand is high, and you ramp it down when the demand is not as high. And so with that flexibility, you've got the opportunity to use it kind of as your company scales. Right. It's not just for the small teams. It's for the larger, more robust teams. And then there's all those in between. Somebody's on some kind of paternal leave. We've got some influx or some transitioning positions. We've got people that just want to take a break or go on vacation. There's all these ways that we can partner with a team, like Answerforce, to just flex our ability to take incoming calls, but always keep it consistent, always keep it professional, and always keep it aligned with what our standard operating procedures are.
[00:06:01.890] - Brandon
So answerforce.com forward slash floodlight. Learn more about them and what they can do with you. And finally, last but certainly not least, our friends over at CNR magazine. You have an interesting article that went out actually this week. And then I think there's rumors. I think you have one that may be in the next print issue, actually.
[00:06:22.200] - Chris
Oh, yeah. It's a vulnerable one. It was a hard one for me to put out, to be perfectly honest. I talk about crying in it.
[00:06:30.810] - Brandon
Something like a good cry article. It was a little bit revealing, our magazine.
[00:06:34.310] - Chris
Yeah. And actually what's fun. So go to Cnrmagazine.com and check out some of the latest articles. I think this one I just did is in the little sidebar in the most recent or whatever. Yeah, it's called marrying standards with goals. Or goals with standards to win. And I think it's a decent article. It's fun stuff. But the COVID image I generated with AI and it is really cool. It is really cool. It took me actually a while to fidget with the prompts and everything else, but it's really fun. And it's one of those images that kind of stops you scrolling in your feed. It's really colorful and it's just anyway.
[00:07:09.780] - Brandon
It definitely stands out.
[00:07:10.960] - Chris
It's super cool. Yeah.
[00:07:12.060] - Brandon
So people take note of that. But anyways, you guys, CNR magazine, you guys know we've said it a million times. Michelle and her team essentially friend us in the industry, right? Not us as in our team specifically, but all of us as restorers and vendor partners within this very special industry, man, they just take pride in leading and ensuring that good information, that information that we can use, that we can leverage on benefit of our teams is available and consistent. And the quality, I mean, all of it, you've heard it a million times, we just love that team and what they're doing for our industry. Okay, my man, let's get into this. I'm going to let you launch with the first nugget and see how things go here.
[00:07:49.370] - Chris
Well, it's interesting. I had a couple of thoughts. We've talked about this in previous episodes a little bit. Just you and I are in a similar stage of life, but you're about four or five years ahead of me in terms of kid ages.
[00:08:00.230] - Brandon
Yeah, just kid age.
[00:08:01.200] - Chris
Just making clear. Well, not only, but maybe five is.
[00:08:05.660] - Brandon
In stylish good looks. Yeah, about four or five years ahead of you there too.
[00:08:09.100] - Chris
Your biceps are bigger too.
[00:08:11.200] - Brandon
Actually, dude, I've got bicep envy right now. We're not even going to get into that. So we had a client the last time we were on a client on site, and he pointed out that your arms were bigger than mine. And I haven't been able to get over it. I'm soul Crush right now, currently.
[00:08:25.620] - Chris
Well, that reminds me of how good it made me feel when he said that. I've totally forgot about that. I'm feeling better about myself, just me off.
[00:08:32.450] - Brandon
And if he's listening, I want him to know how crushing it was for my spirit.
[00:08:35.840] - Chris
I'm just going to let that hang there. So speaking of the gym, I was there last night and you weren't.
[00:08:40.320] - Brandon
That's right.
[00:08:45.750] - Chris
Thick DPS, bro.
[00:08:48.310] - Brandon
For those of you that know, you know, video gamers. But if you don't, you won't.
[00:08:52.930] - Chris
Yeah, so as I was leaving the gym so our gym is in downtown, and so you just kind of park wherever it's all these other businesses around it. But there's an eye doctor office right behind the gym, and they recently started allowing our gym members to park there in the afternoon evening workouts. And so last week or week before last, I parked back to her for the first time. Like, gosh, this is convenient. Just walk, like, ten steps into the this is great. And so I get out of the gym after just running myself into the ground. I walk out the front door. Habitually. I have a certain place that I typically have parked for the last two years, and so I just mosey out like any other night, walk all the way around the block to my usual parking spot. I'm like, well, where the hell's my car? I stand there for a minute.
[00:09:41.210] - Brandon
Jeez.
[00:09:41.830] - Chris
All right. I parked in the eye doctor a lot. So I walk all the way around the block to the back of the gym. I find my car, and I go home. Last night, I finished the workout again, and I do exactly the same thing. I walk all the way down the block to this other parking spot that I usually park in. I stand there for a moment, scratch my head. I'm like, Where did I park my car? I'm like, in the exact same freaking parking spot as the week before last when I parked in the new parking lot. And you're like, Nordike, why in the hell do we give a shit? And you know what? It tipped off in me, dude, how habitual all of us are. And I find myself, just to be candid at times, getting frustrated in certain situations with our clients or with some of our clients. Downline team. We're making changes in the business, we're introducing a new process and we've clearly explained the why behind why it's so important and all this stuff. And yet we come back to a follow up session, or we come back to a follow on training and review the progress.
[00:10:45.510] - Chris
And it's like, okay, not much progress, still doing the same old thing. And we teach this to business owners and leaders all the time. The importance of repetition, of cadence, of developing mantras to help us put certain ideas and concepts and standards and values in concrete, and just how much repetition. We talk about creating grooves. We use the comparison on the freeway, right, how over time the tire grooves wear into it and it almost pulls your car into these ruts. And the analogy with our business, it's important to have those ruts that people can just slide into to adopt a behavior. But I think what we underestimate is how much repetition is required. And so I know it's kind of a dumb analogy. It's like, okay, Nordike, well it could just be you're fucking old, this is gray hair coming out, you're forgetting where you parked your car. But I think it's actually yes, maybe. But it was one of those reminders where I'm like, okay, I can't even remember when I've changed the location of my parking spot. Immediately I have to create a new habit. And I suspect now that I've talked about it like this, this is going to sort of bake it into my brain.
[00:11:59.530] - Chris
And I probably won't go hunting for my car again because I'm spending so much time thinking and talking about it right now. But to me it was just a great reminder with our existing consulting relationships and everything else that there is an amount of patience and repetition that is really required as leaders. And I guess it's yet another reminder I don't have patience. I don't even have patience with myself, even just the dumb little things. I'm just like, dumb ass. I have this negative self talk of duh. But anyway, I just thought that was a good reflection because it's just something I've been processing. I've noticed myself having frustration because I think we always in our consulting work, it's just one of the attributes of the job is that you want success for your clients so much. And I think part of the position that we're in as consultants, we can see to some degree the road in front of them. Like if they can just lock in this behavior, if we can just get this pattern or this system in place, we know because we've seen it with so many clients, we've seen it in our own businesses, that there's good fruit that's going to come of that.
[00:13:03.840] - Chris
And I think as owners and leaders too, like you listening to this whether you're a consultant or not, you understand that you're working with maybe a downline team member or somebody that you're mentoring in the business and it's like over and over again, it just feels frustrating.
[00:13:19.060] - Brandon
Yeah, I think it's an interesting point. I think one of the things that we forget about when we're trying to work through some change within the organization or establishing standards, systems, processes, whatever is in those early phases of that, depending on kind of like size and scope of the company. Most of us, when we grow our business, a lot of these systems and processes we start to put in place when we notice there's no more ignoring it. Right? Like we've grown through sheer gut, sheer will. We've kind of pulled the thing out of the dirt and gotten it to a certain state and now we have to do this. And long story short, though, we forget that change in a business requires behavior modification. And I think that for some reason, and I do this is we disassociate those two things from each other. We forget that learning that training somebody or equipping somebody to do something differently than like what you're saying habitually they've been doing before, it requires behavior modification. And the challenge with that is we're often not training or teaching our people in such a way that we're aware of and we're dealing with or managing that behavior modification.
[00:14:25.340] - Brandon
Right. So it's like this. We have a conversation with our people, we share, hey, we're going to do this. We modified this process and then we make the assumption that our team is on board, they get it and they're going to take care of business and do what we want them to. And the challenge is that they may actually want to, but the behavior hasn't been created because we didn't spend enough time in the trench practicing or doing what was necessary to create that behavior modification. I get frustrated with myself when I don't give myself the time. Like I don't walk through the paces to do something so that I'm changing the way I thought about it a day ago. We don't give that enough credit. And I think sometimes it makes us frustrated or it looks like malicious intent or whatever. A lot of times it's just we've talked about something but we haven't gone through the steps required to change behavior.
[00:15:15.420] - Chris
Yeah, it kind of takes me back to that James Clear atomic habits thing. And I hadn't really made this connection before, but I think it's probably good for us to realize when we're trying to introduce change in our team or with, I mean, frankly, in our marriage, relationship with our kids or with anything, we're essentially asking that person to become a different person than they were. The person that we are is really just kind of a collection of repetitive behaviors and reactions and responses. Right. And so when we're fundamentally asking somebody to do their job differently or to prioritize something differently or to value something differently because, hey, this has a new importance to the business or we feel like this could have a really powerful effect on the business. We're essentially asking them to kind of change their know, like how they, you know, James Clear talks about when we're trying to do that individually, we're trying to make some sort of change or habit change or lifestyle change. In our life, whether it's health or it's career or relationships or something like that, that it's really useful to identify an archetype or an avatar, an example of that, whether that's Chuck Norris or, you know, like that Hillary Clinton or whoever your archetype is, you're like, I want to be more like that person.
[00:16:30.860] - Chris
And then to be able to ask yourself, okay, then the habit formation is going back to that image of that person saying, okay, what would they do in this situation? Right? There's a level of repetition of almost learning how to be that person.
[00:16:43.830] - Brandon
For me personally, I've been doing more of that. I don't know that I could tell you the individual, but recently, for me, it's been this focus on, okay, those personalities, regardless of name. Those people that I look to in my past or maybe that I've had a short term exchange with or interaction with in terms of my sphere of influence are those people that and you and I have talked about this a bit before that show their wisdom through their collective consistency. Meaning that they don't get really amped up, they don't get low. It's just this nice cadence of accountability for themselves, discipline and just confidence of, hey, we're going to make it through this, or We've been here before, or I've done this a million times, or whatever the case may be. But it's this wisdom, it's this emotional consistency where they certainly recognize when things are good and they certainly recognize when things are a challenge, but emotionally they're not reacting or posturing to marry up against some of that stuff. And so it's like listening to what you're talking about or kind of just going back to this whole behavior modification I'm trying to keep in my mind, like those people, that posture, that demeanor that I have prescribed with or equated to wisdom and just trying to mirror or mimic more of that in my own personal life.
[00:18:04.170] - Brandon
I mean, like, all of us, our business is challenging just like everybody else's. Our home lives, all the things. And my kids, I love them both. They still do things that really frustrate me. I do things myself that frustrates me. And I'm just trying to get better at just walking that line of just consistent emotional response to these things. Not the reacting, not the thing. But anyways, where I was going with that is it's hard for that to move from a thought or an intent for it to become actual behavior modification. And quite honestly, I'm not entirely sure what I can do to speed up the learning process. But it's just a matter of I felt myself walking. This transition from sucked at it completely. Everything I was doing was fairly subconscious. Then there was like, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And so I would catch myself more in the rear view mirror. Like a situation is over. And I'm like, that didn't really go the way I would have wanted it to. And then I moved into a place where more often let's put it that way, I'm catching myself before I react.
[00:19:09.110] - Brandon
And now I kind of feel like this plateau where I don't know how to make that better. I don't know how to intentionally create more exposure or to move that needle faster in terms of how often I can then just prevent from me even sliding into that mental state, let alone trying to buffer a response, but just not going there. Like, how do I mentally transition into being emotionally more consistent and more leveled out anyways? I think maybe steered the behavior mod into a different direction. But that's just where I am personally, I think, in relationship to behavior mod thing.
[00:19:46.960] - Chris
Yeah. And I also, I guess, realize too, just how much our thoughts, like, the stories in our head, the shoulds that come up, get in the way of us really creating change. Like, we can just slip into this thing of they should be able to get it after the third time I've said it. You know what I mean? It's like that ego comes out, and I realize the power of my thoughts that affects my attitude. And it's so easy for my ego to reinforce my attitudes with those kind of comments. Like, we've had this gosh dang conversation twice now. They should have their shit together rather than considering why don't they have their shit together?
[00:20:27.500] - Brandon
What's standing in the way?
[00:20:28.590] - Chris
What is standing in the way? And is it possible? Like, I think we're all different and every situation is different, and I think some changes, for whatever reason, are more difficult for us than others.
[00:20:40.750] - Brandon
I think that's one of the reasons I don't know if we have always thought about it super intentionally, but I think it's one of the reasons why we use that language. A lot of what are we doing to memorialize this training or to memorialize this date that we're agreeing that X has been accomplished or that X has been done? And the importance of that, I think one of the ways that we've talked about it in the past is creating a clear line in the sand where we can look at it and say, hey, before today, I was this, right? I did this process. I owned this whatever. Now, though, I'm this I'm in alignment with this system, this process. I know what I didn't know yesterday, I know today. And the ability of creating a real intentional memorialized point in the sand, if you will, really helps us, I think, internally go, okay, mentally, I'm buying in that I now know this process versus just a passing conversation or a quick meeting and then hoping that that translates into behavior change.
[00:21:43.330] - Chris
Yeah. My whole thinking, dude, has been shifting in this area because when I explore kind of the things that frustrate me and kind of get me in that headspace, it's usually my ego that's driving it. Sure. I'm not getting what I want from this person, and I feel like I shouldn't have to put more in. You know what I mean? Yeah. Total ego. Yeah. If I'm not careful in that moment, it has nothing to do with the success I want for that person or that team or that whatever. Somehow it's about me. I'm disappointed in what they're bringing, but I'm not asking the question, what could I be bringing that would help that transition or help them make that change? Of course, I get there's a lot. And this is the confusing part about business right. And relationships and leadership is there is this it's like the yin and yang of things. There are scenarios often where the person just doesn't have the skill or the personality for the particular thing we're asking them to do or the desire or inclination. And so we all have the experience of wanting something more than the other person wants it.
[00:22:50.150] - Chris
And it's like, where do you find that line? I think sometimes that's really tricky. It's like this line where, one, as a leader, recognizing this person clearly needs more support or help to make this transition. More reminders, more repetition, more training, more role playing, whatever it is. Two, we've done this seven, eight times. At what point do you pull the rip cord? That is the hard thing we talk about relative to terminating people. We talk about the three rules. Did I provide them enough training? Did I give them enough time to make that change? And did I document, have I created clarity around this issue with them?
[00:23:25.620] - Brandon
Clear feedback.
[00:23:26.360] - Chris
Yeah. Clear feedback. Right. But even then, I think that's just one of the things that as leaders, we carry, that's part of the burden we carry is trying to discern right. When we've given enough or when we've given all that we can allocate to that person.
[00:23:40.460] - Brandon
It's interesting. I remember years ago going through this was a long time ago now. We went through a program where we were learning was it top down hiring or top grading? Top grading, I think so, yeah. Something along those lines. Essentially, it was this idea of what can you do in your interviewing and onboarding process to do a better job of identifying that whole hungry, humble, smart.
[00:24:02.610] - Chris
A successful profile of a person that's.
[00:24:05.410] - Brandon
Going to be successful in our it's know as lincioni kind of points to in their writings in terms know that whole hungry humble smart is at the end of the day there's not a ton of industry where the technical competency the technical knowledge is make or break for the role. In most cases, people learn stuff, right? Like if we really boil it down, people can learn new things. And when the posture is correct, meaning they're humble, they're coachable, right? They're hungry, meaning they want to learn, they want to advance. They don't need you to pull them. And then that whole smart being centered around this social awareness, like how I act, affects the people around me. So I want to act in a way that's more effective, right? Hungry, humble, smart. When you have that raw clay to begin with, in most cases, people can learn the tech stuff and really win because all those internal markers are set to learn, to engage, to take in information, to modify behavior. So anyways, one of the things I just realized is how bad I still am with that, with the getting to being able to really identify the whole hungry, humble, smart element and then marrying that with, okay, there's got to be some level of competency depending on the role.
[00:25:21.820] - Brandon
So example, key leader roles. Can we teach them quite a bit about the business? Yeah, but I can't teach them everything there is about leadership. Otherwise they're not going to be ready to take on the role. Right, but anyways, my point is that I'm still trying to figure out as an employer, as a consultant, how do we ask the kinds of questions that help us identify that? Because kind of going back to where this conversation started is if we're going to be confident enough to give our people what they need to move through those learning gaps or those training gaps, we need to have some element of a foundation so we can't be questioning all the things the give a shit. The humility levels, are they driven at all? We can't have all of those being variables in the same equation. Otherwise we won't be able to come up with an answer. And so just how to identify those folks better in those early phases, we've been super fortunate. Knock on wood. Our internal team, I mean, I can't tell you how many times a week you and I have texts, right? Or I have a text exchange with Jana or another part of the team of just how proud we are of the hires that we've had the honor to make and the quality of people.
[00:26:28.430] - Brandon
Yeah, but I mean, we were fortunate because they're kind of like the best of everything. Not only are they hungry, humble, and smart, but then they're all technically ridiculously competent. If we're just being honest, we were fortunate, right?
[00:26:42.430] - Chris
Yeah.
[00:26:42.740] - Brandon
We knew some of these people.
[00:26:43.880] - Chris
We got fairly lucky. Yeah.
[00:26:45.480] - Brandon
We didn't necessarily do it all just through our awesome questioning ability.
[00:26:49.580] - Chris
Well, and I think it's getting harder because I think one of the ways, if we had any role in it, how much of it was luck, how much of it was our. Approach with looking for people and bringing them on? I don't know. I think it was mostly luck, it feels like, but just the caliber of folks we ended up with. But we also took our time.
[00:27:06.980] - Brandon
We did.
[00:27:07.500] - Chris
And that's an interesting, I think you could say, argument right now within HR and recruiting is there's a lot of complaining by candidates? I mean, right now it's a candidate's world. It's a job hunter's world right now in a major way. And so there's a lot of complaining on the part of applicants and candidates about just how long and drawn out the interview process is. And I've seen stuff on LinkedIn periodically about, oh my gosh, I'm going in for my fifth interview, and now they're having me meet with whatever, the field manager, and holy cow, I'm taking time off of work for every single one of these, that kind of thing. And so there are certain HR leaders that are talking about how ridiculous and unfair and unprofessional that is for companies to have such a long, extended process. And I'm like, well, yeah, I can understand that. Maybe as a job hunter that feels that way. At the same time, part of me is like, don't you as a candidate, want to know? I mean, I get that we all have to pay our mortgage. Most of us do. I get that there is an urgency that we feel when we're hunting for our next gig.
[00:28:13.910] - Chris
So I understand that. But at the same time, the way I think you and I've always looked at interviewing is a two way interview. Yeah. We don't want to just persuade and cajole somebody to come join our team.
[00:28:24.320] - Brandon
The goal is not to sell them.
[00:28:26.020] - Chris
No. The goal is to come to a meeting of the minds and be like, does this feel right for you? Does this feel right for us? Let's run. Let's do this. And I think that's more or less how you and I have handled recruiting, especially for leadership figures and so forth. Part of me feels like you need just a certain amount of time and grade with somebody.
[00:28:47.930] - Brandon
I think that's interesting. You're right to identify that stuff. Yeah, I think you do. But I think the key is, or this opinion is when someone acts as if an acts, meaning not playing or faking, but is carrying themselves in such a way that's communicating in such a way that you're wanting to learn about the individual. And we're saying that, like, we're communicating, hey, our hiring process is not super fast, but here's why here's our intent. Here's why it's so important for you to have the time for you to meet multiple key leaders in our company and interview with them, because you're interviewing as much as we are. You right. But I think the challenge, the difference between that and what we normally do is we're just doing a bad job of following up and communicating with people. It's not necessarily the too many interviews.
[00:29:39.430] - Chris
Although I have heard that.
[00:29:41.640] - Brandon
But I almost just wonder if there's a reality of you putting the brakes on and leading that process, explaining why it's important for them and us may keep that conversation more mutual. Like it may hold more value.
[00:29:55.710] - Chris
I love that. I think that's really good wisdom. In a lot of ways that kind of falls to the same principle as why we do the restoration checklist with clients. It's like if we let them know, hey, there's going to be some stressful bits or maybe some frustrating points in this process ahead. It almost never feels as weighty and as hard when that shows up because it's like, well, we talked about this same principle is set a good expectation. And I think probably I certainly have failed to do that in the past. It's almost like we modulate as we go. And if we're not quite feeling it, then we do another interview and another interview and all of a sudden the candidates tired out and or irritated or offended or whatever versus if we just said, hey, it's very likely we're going to need a series of three or four meetings for us to get to know each other. And the intent is for you to also be able to like if we had unpacked that on the front end, maybe that makes it feel more professional and whatnot. All right, Headhart and Boots listeners wanted to stop here just a moment and thank our underwriting sponsor, Bloodlight Consulting Group, as all of you you know, Brandon and I, this is our passion project, Headhart and Boots is.
[00:31:05.250] - Chris
But it's also a way more and more that our consulting clients find us and in effect they interview us, right? Those of you been listening to show for a while, you get to know who we are, right, what we're about. So if Headhart and Boots is valuable to you, one of the best things you can do is share it with your friends. And it's been incredible to watch just the audience grow and we still get text messages from many of you about shows that you really like and impacted you. So that's number one. And please keep doing that. Many of you have been huge advocates of the show. We also just want to remind you too, if you're a restoration company owner and you're interested in a partner in your growth, you want some help building out systems, developing your leadership teams, helping set up the infrastructure for you to scale and grow into the company that you're trying to build. That's what we do. That's what we do is we come alongside restoration company leaders, we help equip them and we help support them in that growth trajectory. So if you're looking for that go to floodlightgrp.com, potentially we could be a great match for each other.
[00:32:04.920] - Brandon
Another way that we really do serve our client base and our sphere of influence is through our Premier Partners. We work really hard to vet those folks that we believe bring a level of value to the industry, that it can really be leveraged in a way to have a sincere, positive impact on your business. We take that very seriously. The folks that we create, those kind of ongoing partnerships, that's not a check the box kind of scenario. We really see strategic alignment in the value that they bring. We see value in the way that their leadership teams and their partners are developed. And we've done very sincere work of ensuring that these folks that we introduce our clients and our sphere to can actually create vetted value. So go check out Floodlightgrp.com Premier Partners and see if there's some folks on there that you can connect with and begin developing some other resources to support your growth and your business.
[00:32:56.710] - Chris
Another thing about hiring, I've been sitting in on a handful of interviews lately with sales candidates for some of our clients. And, you know, one of the themes I've been seeing, and I've been seeing it reported on and HR people writing about it in the internets and so forth. There's been a real trend of millennials and generation nexters who, whatever we call them now, hopping jobs every couple of years. It's becoming more the norm. Whereas my grandfather worked at the same place for 36 years, my dad taught for 32 years, my mom nursed 34 years, my wife has been 22 years. And that hasn't been my story, but I've had a number of different intervals of five, six, eight years, whatever. And it's interesting, as a recruiter, as an owner, as a leader that hires people, I tend just instinctively to favor people that have resumes where they've been at somewhere for ten years, eight years, six years, three years, under three years. There's a certain amount of skepticism or cynicism I'm applying to that applicant, especially if I see multiple stints of under three years. And I was thinking about that, because this is becoming very normal and on kind of a cynical side.
[00:34:18.370] - Chris
I've seen TikToks, I've seen blog posts. I've seen medium articles of millennial professionals talking about why. I mean, basically they've learned strategically that they can level up their career every two years by hunting for a job routinely, and they do it systematically, like I put in my two years here. I develop some highlights, a highlight reel of the things I've done, and then I go and I leverage that to get a 20% raise or to go get stock options or whatever. I've seen many, many millennials, it seems like mostly millennials and younger. I think it's true. I think in some ways, us as employers, we feed that as we look for talent, we're willing to buy talent. And so we kind of feed into that to some degree. I think probably the tech industry drives that more than anybody else, because it's just such enormous rapid growth and high margins and everything else. And all of us just sort of bear the consequence of that culture. But here's the other thing that I've noticed too. If I step back and think about it, the people that were at a role for ten years, it doesn't actually mean they have what we want.
[00:35:25.820] - Chris
You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, the things that we associate with. They were at this job for ten years. I instinctively think, well, they have years of developed skill in that space. They have stick to itiveness. Right. They're diligent. We assign a lot of values to that. You were at a place for ten years. Wow. Or even more so on LinkedIn, how you can see, like, they started out as a sales rep, then they became a sales manager, and now they're an operations manager, a GM. And you're like, twelve years. And you're like, okay. But the reality is, just like, sometimes those jumpers that change every two years have sort of a superficial, shallow sense of responsibility and loyalty and all that kind of stuff. The people that have been in a place for ten years, sometimes it's because they were just comfortable. They weren't growing, they weren't looking for a challenge. They weren't trying to level themselves up, let alone the business that they were working for. And they were just comfortable. And likewise, I've encountered some people that do the every two years job thing, and they're just killers. They're hungry and they are leveraging the system, but they're bringing maximal value.
[00:36:40.420] - Chris
So we see that too. So it's just reminding me of my biases if I'm not careful, that I can bring just by looking at the resume. So one of the things I periodically will remind myself to do is I don't look at a resume before I talk to somebody because I don't want to know. So we talk about, like, identifying the hungry, humble, smart. Sometimes it's really freaking hard because you have these competing information. You're looking at their resume, what their track record is on paper, what they've chosen to show about themselves, versus how you experience them live. I don't know if that's right or wrong. It's just something I've been experimenting with lately is almost every time our clients will send us a resume ahead of time, and I've more and more been not looking at it and instead having them give me their narrative. Hey, tell me about yourself. I have your resume, but I wanted to just instead, I want to come in fresh. Talk to me about your trajectory, what brought you here, what has you interested in this role, and then diving back and exploring how they got to here.
[00:37:36.900] - Chris
But it's interesting how much our own brains just are habitual. The way we see the world, our collective experiences, the biases it gives us, or that we bring to our decision making and the way we approach stuff. I think we just don't realize it until we do. Right? And along those same lines, well, it's really not. It's just in a random rabbit trail. So I was driving home yesterday. I had that whole parking thing where I lost my car. Dude, where's my car? And I get home and I'm getting out of my car and there's this dude, no shirt on, he's probably 50s fit, not like instagram fit, but he's fit. He's clearly fit, has muscles where they belong, and he's just full out drenched in sweat as though he'd just run a marathon length run. He has one of those hydration vests on with the little water bottles on him, and he's actually got a sweat band. So he's clearly in his fifty S, a man that sort of matriculated in the 80s. He's got this sweat band, and anyway, he's just getting after it. And so I just out of respect, I'm like, hey, dude, putting in the work.
[00:38:41.820] - Chris
He's like, oh yeah, bro, but having fun, too. I was like, yet another good reminder, man. I'm just having all these moments of pause where I'm like, having fun. Well, bullshit, you're not having fun, dude. You just like, sweated your guts out running on pavement. That's not fun. I hate running. I absolutely hate running. Running is one of my least desirable activities that I could possibly engage in. And I'm really into fitness. I can't stand running. He gave me this moment of pause. I was standing there with the door of my car open for I'm not kidding you, probably 20 or 30 seconds just thinking about and having fun.
[00:39:15.730] - Brandon
You're like, no, you're not.
[00:39:17.650] - Chris
How can anybody I'm like, how often do I grit and grind myself to do a thing that I don't really want to do? And I just occupy that headspace of like, 75 hard. There's a mindset where we and I'm not necessarily saying it's wrong, but I think today there's a lot of talk about discipline, and we talk about a lot you and I've been thinking about a lot. There's almost like a new, fresh glory in suffering, like the David Goggins that there's value in just the suffering. And his comment just made me reflect on, yes, I think I need to lean into suffering. There's something important about producing, intentionally pursuing suffering and hardship in our lives, especially just the easier our lives get, the more money we make. All the things there's something really important about struggle. But his comment, it just really made me think, god, is it possible for me to shift my attitude and actually get more pleasure out of those things? You know what I mean?
[00:40:17.370] - Brandon
Yeah, I do.
[00:40:18.380] - Chris
While still eating that important vitamin of struggle.
[00:40:22.370] - Brandon
Yeah.
[00:40:22.890] - Chris
It's like it doesn't mean that I'm going to choose a more pleasurable activity. It's just is it possible that I'm making it the suffering greater because of the attitude or the mindset I have about it?
[00:40:35.440] - Brandon
Yeah, I feel like in many ways that's played itself out in some of our exercise stuff. Physical fitness routine is, I think, earlier in the year, before I was kind of off the wagon again there for a bit in that inconsistent state. I think I had started to slide more into the focusing on the parts about it I don't like and embracing the suck, if you will, versus actually I kind of like working out, really.
[00:41:02.660] - Chris
I feel good about when I do this.
[00:41:04.530] - Brandon
Yeah, just kind of really sliding into that. I do this because I need to. I do this because I'm disciplined and you kind of do suck the fun out of it and it may not have been all that necessary. Yeah, I think too, it can very easily turn things into just almost like guilt. Like guilt, shame. I don't know how. I don't think a lot of times I go into it intentionally thinking it from that perspective. But when it's all about embracing the hard shit and the grind and the suck and all the stuff there is part of it. It just kind of slides into a negative mindset, just constant state of doing things because it's hard or doing stuff because it's not the easy path. And I do kind of want to still have some fun in there. I want my life to be fun. I want to embrace the positive parts about that, I guess.
[00:41:51.490] - Chris
Yeah.
[00:41:52.070] - Brandon
I don't always know how, but I don't either.
[00:41:53.990] - Chris
But it inspired me when he said that, and I believed it. He wasn't just a bullshitter. When people say things, you just kind of know and they mean it. And he meant it and I thought, Shit, I think there's something there for me.
[00:42:05.660] - Brandon
Believe it or not, I actually think there's a tie into some of this stuff. So I was thinking a little bit about like right at the beginning of the conversation you're talking about things that reminded us of behavior modification, that relationship, this mindset against these circumstances or scenarios that we're in and kind of reminds me of this theory of creating a coaching culture. You and I have talked about this just kind of sporadically before, but it's this idea of creating an environment ultimately, in quotes, we've done such a good job marrying accountability and relationship that we actually have an environment where people are always calling each other up. And it's interesting because if you just think about kind of this trajectory of some of these tidbits that we've talked about I'm using a Chris word there.
[00:42:44.530] - Chris
Tidbits. Actually, it was jot and tittle.
[00:42:47.180] - Brandon
Oh, jot and tittle. That's a whole nother layer.
[00:42:49.310] - Chris
That was a new terminology we introduced a couple of weeks ago.
[00:42:52.170] - Brandon
Jump that far into the deep end.
[00:42:53.740] - Chris
Yeah. Get it together, bro.
[00:42:54.760] - Brandon
But it's just kind of this idea of when we create an environment where it's matured to a certain point where our exchanges with the people around us. Like, I've been doing this a lot with my kids recently. I'm honored to do so. We've obviously do it with our own staff and then as coaches and consultants, we do it as part of our partnership with our clients. But it's this idea of beginning to create the kind of environment where we can have hard conversations, point difficult things out that don't always have specifically something to do with a task or a job responsibility, but more of looking at the person as a person and having a more mature conversation. So, like, example these scenarios that you've already talked about where we get frustrated sometimes because when we're training a new employer, training somebody, there's not the behavior modification that we want or talking about our mentality around some of these hard things that we have to do. And what's interesting is that you and I can have a conversation about it and learn, and there's really no expectation to not be learning in the conversation as we kind of go back and forth on a topic.
[00:44:02.020] - Brandon
But we don't really have that in our professional relationships. As it stands with work and our teams, in the sense that it feels like I'm either trying to always talk you into something or shift you into coming into alignment. With something I want versus learning about people and asking hard questions and being able to then reflect for them some of the things that we see as we interact with them. Not just regarding job performance like you did X, you needed to do Y. I mean, obviously there's that feedback, but are you tracking? I think so with what I'm saying. It's weird how we feel this discomfort around, let's say, a comment like that. Let's say I have somebody that's talking about how hard it is to learn how to do X, and being able to say, what do you think makes you think that? What is it that you believe drives that state of mind? And do you think that that actually stands in the way of you being able to learn some of these things? How much of that is just negative self talk that you've learned to tell yourself that actually has no bearing on reality and just see how that changes?
[00:45:10.040] - Brandon
Because this is freaking weird, dude. So I'm not shitting you. This was years ago. I had somebody this is so trippy, actually, that just popping up. I had a scenario with a Downline employee that kept coming in over and over in the initial parts of our relationship saying that they were horrible at act. They would just say it all the time, oh, I'm just terrible at act. And somebody reminded me I can't remember who this may have been amy. Amy reminded me. She was like, hey, you know, you can have influence on their perspective of what they're good and bad at.
[00:45:42.980] - Chris
I said what? What are you talking about?
[00:45:44.670] - Brandon
Right? This was like, employee Coaching 101, right? Or probably 501 coming from Amy. But the point which she made to me is watch what happens. She said, try this. She said, over the next several weeks, when you see them, talk about an example or point out that you actually think they're very good at X and watch what happens. And I am not kidding you, dude. I did a social experiment with one of our people. After about five or six weeks of me, every couple of days, catching them doing something or in the hallway, it's going to sound like this was totally repetitive to the point where they picked up on it. No, I played it out. Subconscious, I would just say, oh, man, nice work with XYZ. I knew you were dialed in on that. I knew you were actually good at that. Just keep walking. Don't get caught in a conversation. A few days later, go by, something happens. Hey, dude, nice work on the XYZ. I really appreciate how you had that. I knew you were good at that, and I did this I'm not shitting you for like five or six weeks, if I remember correctly.
[00:46:40.310] - Brandon
And by the end of it, that individual came into my office and was using language like, yeah, I actually really like doing XYZ. I'm pretty good at it. I'm not kidding. It was the trippiest thing I had ever experienced, and it worked so well. I haven't done it since.
[00:46:53.210] - Chris
Isn't it funny just how complicated and yet simple we are?
[00:46:58.780] - Brandon
Oh, yeah.
[00:46:59.400] - Chris
I find that inspirational, to be honest, because what that story tells me is all of us are capable of great change by simply changing the inputs. This was an example of you helping influence somebody else by your behavior, and it had a positive effect on their perception of themselves.
[00:47:20.750] - Brandon
That's right.
[00:47:21.440] - Chris
Which changed their thoughts about a particular skill or trade craft or task or responsibility, and it completely changed their perception of it, which is just remarkable to me.
[00:47:34.520] - Brandon
It's interesting, too, because kind of following that same track of thought for years, I would say out loud, I'm not good at strategy. I'm not a strategic thinker. I'm a general. Meaning that I want to just command the troops.
[00:47:47.150] - Chris
Nuts and bolts.
[00:47:47.880] - Brandon
What's the big mission? Got it. I'm a field general. I'm going to go out and I'm going to command the troops. We're going to lead them, we're going.
[00:47:53.380] - Chris
To execute, because you are good at.
[00:47:54.490] - Brandon
That, and I like it. I do like that level of integration with my key leadership and my team, but just this reality of me for years and years saying, well, I'm not a strategic thinker. I'm not actually good at strategy. I'm not whatever. And it's just not true. I mean, I just had a couple of people in my life that questioned that, that didn't believe me, basically. That said, they affirmed in me those times where I was talking about or we were working through strategy or brainstorming around strategy. And I had a couple of people that consistently enough told me, actually, you're really good at that similar situation. Right.
[00:48:27.490] - Chris
So funny.
[00:48:28.040] - Brandon
Here I have this subconscious example internally of what I did with somebody else externally, but that really shifted my mindset. And more recently, it's funny because now when I think about our company and a lot of the things that we do now, I love strategic thinking. I love going to the table and thinking big picture about what we need to do and what those outcomes could potentially be and what a dramatic shift from this mindset that I had shared for so long with myself of you're not good at X. And once someone convinced me that maybe I actually am pretty good at it, it was just like a 180 degree turn. And now you'll hear me often say things like, I love strategy. That's my favorite part. I like digging in and getting into the strategy.
[00:49:12.130] - Chris
Well, it's like 90% of what you and I do together.
[00:49:14.660] - Brandon
Yeah.
[00:49:15.120] - Chris
Yes, I agree. It's funny. Just a simple change in how we see ourselves or the thoughts that we have. It's profound. It's really all this stuff, dude, has gone from several years ago to very woo woo. Kind of think about it internally, don't want to say it out loud to now. I think you and I, both of us, in different ways, in different contexts, are just realizing over and over and over again the way that we're thinking about something, the way that we think about things in our business. We think about our people, we think about priorities, the way we think about relationships. It's kind of everything it is because it drives our action. Getting right, thinking about something, in some cases, can make the action very effortless once we get the right thoughts about yeah, and maybe this is a good wrap up. I don't know. I was watching a video story that came through my feed. There was a guest that I remember hearing either on Tim Ferriss or Joe Rogan. His name is Roland Griffiths. A lot of people have heard about the psychedelic research that's taking place, like John Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic and stuff around helping soldiers with PTSD and stuff like that.
[00:50:17.250] - Chris
Anyway, he's a big. Yeah. Yeah. So Roland Griffiths is a big time researcher in that space for many, many years, been a leader in it, and very interesting guy. He's like 70, I think. Well, he just died two days ago, and this story was an interview with him about two weeks before his death. Interesting. And of course, part of his research is helping people like terminal cancer patients, using psilocybin and some of these things to really ease the process of dying and the anxiety and the dread that people can experience when they're facing death. So that's a big area of his research. Well, now he's the guy who's dying, he had colon cancer, stage four colon cancer when he was diagnosed, or stage five, even when he finally got the diagnosis. And I just thought what he said was so fascinating. He said, when I got my diagnosis, everything changed for me. He said, all of a sudden, I had this sense of clarity and eventually joy. And the guy, the interviewer said, Joy how? And I imagine the interviewer was expecting some sort of spiritual answer or I'm going to meet my savior or some sort of existential thing.
[00:51:24.830] - Chris
And he said, well, every day I sort of realized that instead of this cancer diagnosis, I could have been hit by a truck and it had been all over, and I wouldn't have had any of these last experiences with my wife and my family. All the dinners we've had together and we've shared together. It's pure joy. I'm still around every day I wake up and it's Thanksgiving that I get one more morning to have with my wife to read, to do the things that I enjoy. And you could just tell he meant every sentence of it. Like, you could just see it. And his wife, she wasn't like, there's none of that. For those of you listening, I just turned my head like, what the hell, honey, will you joy his wife was agreeable with it. I mean, it was just beautiful. It was a beautiful interview. She was just nestled against him. They were just sitting there. They'd been married, like 40 some years. They're essentially preparing to say goodbye. Then they just said goodbye two days ago. And again, I just think that's another affirmation that we get to choose. We get to choose how we're going to think about things.
[00:52:24.910] - Chris
And that might be the most powerful choice that any of us has, is how we choose to think about things in every way and in every area of our life.
[00:52:35.590] - Brandon
Close it there later. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart and Boots.
[00:52:44.430] - Chris
And if you're enjoying the show but you love this episode, please hit Follow. Formerly known as subscribe. Write us a review or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.
