[00:00:00.000] - Chris
Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart, and Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart, and Boots podcast. I'm Chris.
[00:00:11.230] - Brandon
And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours.
[00:00:20.890] - Chris
I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it.
[00:00:23.150] - Brandon
I thought you did that on purpose. No, I don't. I didn't, and I am not happy with it. Hey, all, thanks so much for listening to the show. Hey, if you're not already following, please do so and ultimately share, right? Like the coolest currency that we have in terms of supporting this is share it with a friend, share it with somebody, a colleague, a peer, one of your downline team members. Let them be able to take advantage of the information you're already leveraging in your favor. And finally, guys, if you hear a show that really moves you, that really moves the needle, will you please leave us a review? Those five-star reviews help us a ton.
[00:00:58.130] - Chris
Right on. And listen, if you're We're trying to grow your business, you might consider checking out Floodlight's business opportunity audit. It's free. We provided it no charge. It's actually what we use to assess new clients as they come in. It's a 110 point assessment for your business. We've now decided to give access to the general public for it. So go and take our business opportunity audit at floodlightgrp. Com. It's going to help you identify the biggest gaps and opportunities in your business right now. And at the end, it'll assign you a health score to let you know exactly where your business stands right now. Go check it out, floodlightgrp. Com/audit, and take the Boa. It's a great way to get a pulse on your business. So what's up, man?
[00:01:39.420] - Brandon
Dude, you're a dirty, dirty, dirty dog. How you been, man? I feel like we haven't recorded in a long time.
[00:01:45.760] - Chris
It's been a minute.
[00:01:46.430] - Brandon
We've been doing some road warrior stuff.
[00:01:48.870] - Chris
It's been a minute.
[00:01:49.690] - Brandon
Next week's going to be fun. I never like leaving on a Sunday, but when you are told that you have to go to Cancun to support a team.
[00:01:56.860] - Chris
What is the deal with us leaving at 07:00 AM and never, ever getting into anywhere before 07:00 PM?
[00:02:04.880] - Brandon
I know. It is unbelievable. But then you can't complain about it that hard because it used to take people three years to cross the United States, and they would have babies and die and get giardia.
[00:02:17.580] - Chris
It's true. We probably should count our blessing.
[00:02:19.160] - Brandon
Now, all you and I have to do is watch three episodes of alone, have a sandwich, maybe work on a spreadsheet or two, and bingo, in a different part of the world. That's a couple of beef sticks. Yeah. That's right. Fruit bars. Eat some jerky and ask for two of the dumb little fruit bars instead of the one.
[00:02:36.420] - Chris
I guess our life isn't so bad. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:39.260] - Brandon
There are first-world problems.
[00:02:40.850] - Chris
Snuck up on me, though. I still don't know how to speak Spanish.
[00:02:43.370] - Brandon
I know. Yeah. This will be fun, though. Yeah. We got a little invite. Go hang out with some Canadians.
[00:02:49.910] - Chris
I feel like I'm learning Canadian. Yeah. Got a little jump on that.
[00:02:53.270] - Brandon
I'm not sure what that means exactly, but we are.
[00:02:54.510] - Chris
That always sounds nice.
[00:02:56.060] - Brandon
Okay, dude. I've got a topic. I think inevitably, a lot of our shows end up being the byproduct of experiences that we are actively in, that we're taking part in. These aren't like, We're holier than thou, and we've got it all figured out. We want to tell you how to do your life. It's more like it's been meaningful for me and for us to have people in our lives that are sharing their experiences with us. And there's these times for us to relate to that, to mirror some of those experiences and mirror some of those behaviors or the ways that folks had reacted to it. And there's this amazing thing that happens when you just aren't alone in something, right? It takes some of the mystery and the scariness or whatever. I don't know.
[00:03:44.140] - Chris
I think I know where you're going. If you didn't go here, it was marriage for me today.
[00:03:48.430] - Brandon
Well, I think you're going to be able to relate to everything that I'm about to go down. But all right, so here's what I've been wrestling with. And it's actually been equal parts, really humbling, and equal parts, really rewarding. I think we're not going to be able to go into a lot of the stage setting of the details of where some of this experience has come from. But I think we're going to be able to do it enough where people can relate and apply it to their own businesses or their own experiences. But on my way in this morning, I was just reflecting on the honor it's been to be a leader. Interesting. Probably going to end up having a far more emotional reaction to this than I was anticipating, just mainly because it's so new so raw right now. But all that to be said, I was reflecting on the honor I've had to be a leader in lots of different environments. I have a eight-year career in the military. I certainly wasn't Rambo or did some of the things that many of my peers and friends from the military have experienced, but we certainly did hard things together.
[00:04:48.900] - Brandon
I was able to work with and lead some unbelievably high caliber men that were at the time in their late teens and early '20s, which is unbelievable when you think about it. Then from there, we had as individuals and as partners in businesses, we've led teams, we've built teams, and we've always prioritized this attention to the fact that our people are real people. They're not just assets, they're not just tools, and they're not just resources. I think we can classify our labor pool, our teammates and our team members in those categories, and we often do. I think that it's appropriate as business owners and leaders to measure those things in a way that makes sense. But you and I have always prioritized relationship. Sometimes we have not held that line well in terms of relationship, sometimes held more weight than accountability. As a business leader and steward, that can't be. You have to find that place where you are doing both well. In my world, that's a non-negotiable. For others, they don't feel that way. I've been the recipient of being engaged in businesses and relationships where they don't fucking feel that way.
[00:06:07.170] - Chris
Meaning what you're saying is, in order for it to work, it needs to be both relationship and accountability versus just accountability to the tasking.
[00:06:18.650] - Brandon
100%. It can't just be all the relationship either, because ultimately, then what you're doing as a leader is you're allowing someone to fail. Sure. You're allowing someone to be and live and work in such a way that it's not their best. Then you are denying your team from having a spot in the organization filled by a teammate that they can mutually agree, respect, and work alongside. In my world, my worldview, I'm not saying this is the way, I believe strongly, I believe the winning combination is to somehow find a way to do both those things simultaneously. And it's why we like guys like Clint Pulver, because I think on scale, being behind the scenes of major corporations, he's saying the same thing. I think it's why we like guys like Joey Coleman, where Joey Coleman is behind the scenes of large organizations and big data tables. And he knows and agrees that is the truth from his worldview as well.
[00:07:22.370] - Chris
Can I add just another, I guess, angle on this? Because what's coming up for me, dude, is I said that I had marriage on the brain. One of my friends just recently got a divorce and is right in the middle of wrapping up a divorce. At first, it was a little bit shocking to my wife and I when we found out about this, but then not shocking once I had a conversation with them, right? Yeah. What you're talking about, the importance of both relationship, meaning, I guess, love and care, considerate, how are you defined relationship, right? Yeah. Wanting the best for that person, wanting to So identifying commonalities between you and that other person. Like, what is relationship? I think it's a lot. Balancing that with accountability. And what is accountability? Well, accountability is wanting the best that that person can offer.
[00:08:16.880] - Brandon
A hundred %.
[00:08:17.900] - Chris
To not just the relationship, but to the world. So the reason why I bring this up or why I make that connection is, I think both are needed for any relationship. Agreed. Whether it's marriage, whether it's parenting, whether it's employee, employer, colleagues, peers, all the things. For me, the thing that's been coming up a lot, and I'm sure we've talked about it before, is just the role of honesty in relationships. Because I think actually a lot of marriages, unfortunately, they lack honesty. People get individually their frustration, their resentment, their disappointment rises to such a level where it's like, I can't do this anymore, and they punch out. Their whole relationship had been oriented around just happy wife, happy life. It's accepting. Yeah, just like, this is what it is, or just trying to manipulate or cajole the other person and getting... Instead of just speaking honestly about things, it's 100% relationship and no accountability. To, Hey, this is how I'm experiencing you. This is how it makes me feel. Or, Hey, I'm not getting this from you, and this is how it makes me feel. That's Just the basic accountability of, this is how I'm experiencing you, and I don't like it.
[00:09:34.570] - Chris
When you avoid all those conversations in a marriage, you end up failing in the marriage. You either end up hating your marriage or you leave it. And by the way, there's no judgment in my voice at all. I think every single time I talk with somebody, a friend who's gotten divorced, I can see my own marriage in it. Sure. You know what I mean? It's like, boy, I totally, completely and utterly understand why you got divorced.How this happened.How this happens, how it's almost happened in my marriage. It also gives me a little more clarity as to what do I need to make sure I'm taken care of? What are the key behaviors that I need to make sure I'm committed to being married? It just always keeps coming back to this super high level of honesty, which, by the way, and of course, on the heels of this conversation, my buddy just got divorced. It stirred up some shit for me in my own marriage, and it forced me to have a conversation with and my wife relative to this couple that's getting divorced. I'm like, Honey, this is coming up for me. I'm listening to his story.
[00:10:37.170] - Chris
There's some things that I think we need to talk about, and it was great. It led to, well, I should say, like with any really honest conversation, it often starts out a little awkward. When you start trying to be honest in your marriage, there's an awkwardness, there's a defensiveness that pops up on both sides oftentimes. But then you get through that and you're like, Okay, I get it. We can something with this honesty. We can't do something when that accountability/honesty is missing. Instead, everybody's just trying to feel each other out and placate and pacify and forget about it, ignore it. You know what I mean?
[00:11:17.500] - Brandon
Yeah, and you just grow increasingly disgruntled and frustrated. Then this inevitable pattern of you just give up expecting something different. I don't want to discount or act as if relationships with our kids or our spheres of influence, our spouses and partners, is easier to maintain that balance. But it feels in many times that those environments are easier at feeling drawn to or the expectation seems more realistic that you would be investing in the relationship. I think what I continue to wrestle with as a leader is I'm trying to break down the separating walls between how I lead here versus how I lead there, how I try to enrich relationship here and how I don't or do here.
[00:12:07.620] - Chris
You're one person.
[00:12:08.860] - Brandon
It's one person. I think I've commonly said or heard myself saying to leaders and business owners and consulting relationships and just peer relationships where it's like, I don't know why we act as if our employees are different types of humans than the humans we do life around at home and at church and in our community. Because it's just not true. I think that we wrestle with these boundaries or these lines that we are trying to understand and draws as leaders where what's the love-accountability balance? I think sometimes we make it more complicated than it needs to be because we act as if one is not synonymous with the other or one is counter to the other. I think what I'm trying to come to terms with, I don't even want to say be better at or do I'm just trying to process and decide for myself what this looks like. I am growing increasingly bullish on the fact that accountability and love in a relationship or respect for another human are one in the same, and they're actually not that far from each other if you look at it from the correct set of lenses.
[00:13:23.960] - Brandon
I have been failing forward my entire life as a leader. I've had times where I felt strongly that what I was doing and my convictions were correct and I was leading in a way that was honorable and respectable. I've had many times where I just felt like I was failing miserably or falling too hard into one sector or another. Here's just some couple working examples. I think what this may do is give people maybe a realistic view of how these things pop up as you wrestle with them in real life. We're business owners. We are building a company. Our company, like any other company, has competitors. Those are relationships. Whether we want them to be or not, these are forms of relationships that you and I are forced and faced to deal with and come up with a way that we're going to behave and act in regard to those kinds of relationships. You and I, and some of the folks listening, are going to know exactly who and what we're talking about. But we had a scenario recently where some of our marketing strategies that we decided to try and deploy were offensive to some entities.
[00:14:36.170] - Brandon
There's been some back chatter and some conversations happening around those entities. I'm just going to be super transparent with what this sounded like at home for me. Janna, this is what happened to me today. Can I just tell you what goes on in my head when I'm faced with this experience? Janna's, of course, my wife is like, Yeah, I want to hear this. I said, You know what? A big part of me wrestles because Because I play to win. I want to be a winner. I care about performing, and I don't want people to hate me. In a competitive environment, I will stand up to the challenge, and I get stuck in this cycle where I'm also wrestling with, how do these people think about me? Do they hate me? Are they an enemy? I don't want any of those things. Sure. I also know competitors are not doing me any favors for my business. Right. I'm I'm stuck in this dichotomy. I'm stuck in this wrestling match where I don't want to be hated and I want to play to win. I'm trying to walk this very fine line that balances both of those things simultaneously.
[00:15:42.330] - Brandon
That's an example. I think anybody listening right now that's a leader, a business owner, played sports, can understand that balance. I've worked with people, and I've played sports with people that are just fucking assholes. They're 100% competitors. They may say something like, Life's a game, and I win. Just as an example. I don't fucking admire that. Because my impression of a saying like that is, you are willing to step on the fucking skulls of people to the left and right of you to be in quotes, the winner. I don't want to die as that being on my tombstone.Yeah, right.
[00:16:22.790] - Chris
That's an example. It isn't at all cost. It isn't at all cost. I think it's worth clarifying to this example you're talking That's what we're talking about, right? There was nothing... We did nothing nefarious. No. It was nothing at all.
[00:16:37.340] - Brandon
No, it was competitor ads. It's like, are we going to do it? Are we not? We're honestly in full transparency. We're wrestling with the concept. There may be a felt a little bit more charged in this conversation than maybe we were intended. But long and short of it, we're very transparent about what Chris and I are wrestling with, and it's why we took the chance and do this show. We're hopeful that at the end of the day, this stuff helps people be honest about the stuff that they're fighting with. Again, I don't want to hang in this pocket on this example, but that's a realistic example that a lot of the people listening are probably going to run into. That wrestling match is worthwhile to me because I want to walk this line where I'm honored and respected because I play at the top tier, and I want to be able to end my race at the end of my days and know I'm not fucking alone in that room. It's hard.
[00:17:23.400] - Chris
Yeah, we want to be... It's hard to do both. We want to be proud of what we built and how we built it. And how we built it, man. Not just the end result, but-Not just the How did we play the game?How.
[00:17:32.970] - Brandon
Do we play the game? I think as leaders inside our organizations, this is one of the hardest things that we do is we wrestle with this line that we walk, where are we really being honoring in the relationships that we have with our employees, our team members? And yet, are we still playing at the very top of our game to create the best organization that delivers the highest level of service that toes the that has high expectations and to expect people to earn and win at those level of expectation. It's a hard game to play. But what I just keep getting shown is that if you're failing for it, if you're trying, you're not always going to be rad. You're going to have ups and downs, you're going to have mistakes, you're going to think a decision is the right decision, and you're ultimately going to learn in the rear view mirror, it wasn't. You're going to have regrets at times, and you're going to have to have sincere apologies. And it's not going to be easy. But man, dude, when you get a text message from somebody five, six years after you've even walked beside them, and they tell you that you had a meaningful impact on their life, professionally and personally, that is all I need to go wrestle with that balance, with that dance one more fucking time tomorrow, and the week after that, and the year after that, and the month after that, because it's worth it.
[00:18:57.260] - Brandon
And you're not always going to get rewarded in the midst of the battle. It's going to drive you at times to feel like the asshole card is the ultimate card because people are going to shit on you. People are going to take advantage at the time where you didn't quite get the balance right and you gave them more room than they should have gotten. People are going to hate you at times when you don't get it correct and you drive too hard into the accountability and you miss the relationship. But the fight, the dance to balance both is the most rewarding experience and journey that any of us have the honor to experience. It's just worth it. I think over the last week, I've just been in this position where I've been facing both simultaneously. It is in these moments where you get to experience both simultaneously, both meaning frustration because it doesn't feel like you're making the right decision and being rewarded by somebody's words saying thank you. When you can live in that simultaneously, sometimes it's just a great reminder of how hard the balance is, but how worth the balance is, man.
[00:20:07.290] - Brandon
I'm just a face full of that this week. It's coming from multiple different circumstances and multiple different relationships. These are not relationships that come without weight. These are interesting relationships from my past that are reaching out actively. It's interesting. Sometimes I can't tell if it's karma, if it's God or what it is. But when you just have a series of these things that all happen at the same It's a finite piece of time, it's unbelievably impactful. Liftify. Com/bloodlight.
[00:20:38.110] - Chris
You've heard Brandon and I talk a bunch of times about the importance of Google reviews. Maybe even heard our episode with Zack Garrett The CEO and founder. Recency, consistency, two of the most important things when it comes to maximizing the benefit from your Google reviews. Why not use an outside partner? Liftify is targeting 20 to 25 % conversion, right? So if you do a thousand jobs a year, you ought to be adding right now 200 to 250 reviews a year, every single year. If you're not doing that, you owe it to yourself to get a free demo from liftify. Com. See their system, see how it works, see how affordable it is. I promise you, you'll thank us. Liftify. Com/bloodlight.
[00:21:19.950] - Brandon
We spend a lot of money and a lot of attention trying to get that first call. And one of the things that we do once it happens is sometimes we leave it to chance, right? Who picks up the phone? How do they respond? How do they walk that client into a relationship with us? Well, one of the benefits of partnering with a team like answerforce. Com is we can systemize that, we can make it more consistent. We can also have backup for when our teams need that help. Somebody goes on vacation, somebody's out sick. We get a storm search, we get cat event. All sorts of things can have an impact on how we receive that client. But the most important thing is they need to know that they've chosen the right team. And so answerforce. Com can support you, be a bolt on partner to help you consistently produce an awesome onboarding experience with that first call with your client. So answerforce. Com/bloodlight. That's great.
[00:22:12.470] - Chris
Cnr magazine, we're friends with all the folks at CNR. Michelle and her team, they do a great job of keeping their ear to the ground and reporting all the important information from our industry. You want to stay up on all the M&A activity and what the latest best practices are for selling your company successfully. She's got that. Great articles about all the four quadrants of our business. Cnr is constantly pushing out great material and leveraging great writers and subject matter experts in our industry. It is the water-cooler of our industry. So if you're not subscribed, go to cnrmagazine. Com. Follow them on LinkedIn. Follow Michelle on LinkedIn. Trust us, if you're trying to stay on top of everything happening in the industry, your best destination is cnrmagazine. Com.
[00:22:55.890] - Brandon
You guys, many of you have already heard about Actionable Insights and the training and the technical expertise that they bring to the industry. But how many of you are already leveraging the Actionable Insights profile for Xactimate? That's the game changer. It's essentially an AI tool that's walking alongside of you as you write your estimate, bringing things to your attention that should be added, that could be considered. All of them items that increase our profitability, increase the effectiveness and the consistency of that scope. And it can do anything from helping a new team member assimilate some estimating best practices. It also helps the grizzled vets add back that few % that we've just forgot over time. So actionableinsights, getinsights. Org/ floodlight, and take a look at what the Actionable Insights Xactimate profile could be doing for you and your team. Does any of this make sense? I just feel like babbling.
[00:23:54.890] - Chris
I'm in a season right now with my 16-year-old, my son, where I feel I'm starting to really understand what you're talking about relative to being a dad. I feel like for so much of my kids' upbringing, so my kids are 19, 16, 13. For probably the first 10 years of being a parent, I was so hyper fixated on their behavior standards. I'm making myself sound like a hard ass, but I was in my own way. I was constantly correcting, constantly. I really missed the relationship. Because I was constantly correcting, I got stuck in this frustrated attitude and mindset with the kids. It doesn't mean we don't have good times, and I didn't hug them, and all that. But there was definitely an imbalance. It was more accountability. I think a lot of it was driven out of fear that if I didn't, that I was failing them as a parent. My primary My job is to be a disciplinarian and to show them the way and all this stuff. I think now in hindsight, and as they get older, I'm like, it's actually amazing to me how smart they are in terms of what they should be doing and what life is asking of them, of how little of that accountability they actually need from me.
[00:25:24.230] - Chris
They need it. They need it. They need boundary lines. They're going to test what's appropriate in terms It's a pushback and all that stuff. But how much more they need my love. When we get it right, like I've been experiencing this over the last, really, several months, this last year, really, with my son Jack, in particular, my 16-year-old, is when I find that pocket of when I'm keeping short accounts, I'm dealing with things as they come up that are problematic. Hey, man, I'm doing the story in my head with him. Hey, Hey, story in my head is when you looked cross-side at me or you snapped at your mom in the hallway in that interaction, this is what was going on for me. What was going on for you? I don't want to assume any... I'm processing these things regularly. I'm checking the bad behaviors as they come up, and at the same time, we're quickly getting back to hugs and hangouts. It's just there's something really magical about finding that balance you're talking about. As a parent, in particular, But of course, I think all of us, we've felt what that's like to be in that pocket with our spouses as well.
[00:26:36.060] - Chris
And so, yeah, what you're saying really resonates with me is that it has to be both, and it's not easy. It's not. And it's why most people move through their life with very few meaningful relationships. And often, they struggle to have the impact as a leader that they want to have because either they just aren't oriented around it or they're afraid to build relationship or they're afraid to be seen as the asshole, and so they hesitate to provide any accountability. Yeah.
[00:27:07.210] - Brandon
There's a million reasons how we get there. I mean, I think that's the thing that feels a little bit more sinister about the whole situation is, I feel like in a lot of ways, none of us consciously decide to slip hard into one lane or the other. I just think life experiences, natural wiring, past experiences, blah, blah, blah. They just drive this behavior and you begin to lean harder and harder into it. I think, if I'm honest, too, I think sometimes people are too simple. This is going to sound so judgmental, and I'm not trying to judge. I just know that I've slipped in and out of both lanes, and I've had all of these reasons influencing me at some way or another.
[00:27:44.700] - Chris
Yeah, they're just sleepwalking.
[00:27:45.930] - Brandon
They're just sleepwalking, or you watch. We had a real heavy conversation with a series of business owners early in the year where they were doing things for their people, and they felt taken advantage of. They felt forgotten. They felt like, I know I have people in my history, Chris. Some of it is misinterpretation, and some of it, I was just so self-centered in the moment that people have felt that way about me. God forbid, if I was the catalyst that made that person begin to become more guarded or shut down or more resistant to wanting to build relationship with a future employee because of the way I interacted with them or treated the hand or whatever you would say. I've been on all sides. I am not saying any of this in judgment. Oh, yeah, same. I'm just trying to process out loud. I see it. I've had people shit on me, man, that makes it extremely difficult to want to extend the hand of relationship to the next person. Because in your mind, you just begin to buy into this mentality that when I am kind, people take advantage of me. I'm never going to do that again.
[00:29:02.430] - Brandon
I have plenty of horror stories. Sure. Just like most of the people listening. Sure. Where they've had these situations where people have taken advantage of kindness, and it makes it harder for them to be kind again I think the opportunity and what I'm trying to just lean more into is finding this very mature balance of both of those things happening simultaneously. I was thinking about this the other day. If If we're hiring team members that, based on skillset, we have a really interesting example of this. Based on skillset, based on background, based on personality, you're inviting someone to participate in a team where the standards are just going to be too high for them to commit to. That's the problem. The problem isn't whether you have high expectations or the way that you manage relationship. If at first you hire someone that can't fit in the culture that your organization wants to live with, that is the problem. You will not be able to do one of the other or balance it enough to make them a good fit. I know it's hard to find good people that fit our culture. I believe the majority of that problem stems from we don't know how to articulate the culture we're trying to hire for anyway.
[00:30:18.280] - Chris
Well, okay, not only that, but here's I think the other trap is that we haven't done the work often to create an onboarding pathway for somebody who has the right character and the right drive and the right values to be able to learn the things they need to learn to execute the role. We're too hyper-focused on finding people that know how to do the things so that we don't have to train them rather than us orienting around, I need the right person on my team.100%. And we have systems and processes in place to provide them the education and the equipping they need to do the thing.100%.We don't need... We've talked about this before relative to Sales. Sales is a real tricky minefield. You get the wrong salesperson on your team. It doesn't matter if they can sell. They can really screw up your business. They can really screw up your business. They can turn the operations team against the sales team. They can create all kinds of drama. And of course, this can happen anywhere in your team. But with salespeople, their charisma, their verbal orientation, all of those things can really conspire to create a lot of chaos.
[00:31:29.600] - Chris
Yeah. Then the team, if you get the person with the wrong character, the reality is, and we've been preaching this for a while, is that if somebody has the right disposition, the right personal drive, desire, and character, right? If they're trustworthy, right? They inspire trust in the people they meet, it doesn't matter if they've had sales background. You can teach them how to ask the right questions that lead to the right kinds of conversations with prospects. You can teach them the activity cadence that they need to deploy, how often they need to be in front of people and so forth if they've got the right character and values. But instead, what we tend to do is we tend to chase the dollar signs and the resume bullets. Then when we find out this person is a toxic cancer cell that we just invited into our business, we're surprised.
[00:32:25.010] - Brandon
It's hard for us then to make the decision that is probably best.
[00:32:28.540] - Chris
Especially if they're producing. Oh, my gosh. I mean, you and I have had so many scenarios like that, not just with salespeople, but estimators, high-powered, very successful PMs. They create as much drama and disturbance on the team as they do revenue, but they make the revenue. Yeah. They produce 50, 60K a week. You're like, hard to get somebody that awesome. Maybe we should just make do. And we end up sacrificing our culture for money. And in the long run, though, we up losing the money because we lose all the other key awesome people on the team because they don't want to work with that asshole.
[00:33:05.340] - Brandon
Yeah. I think there's so many different ways that we make contact with these decisions and this balance that we're trying to create between the two. I think part of what I just want to communicate today is encouragement. If you're a leader listening to this and you wrestle with this balancing act of relationship and accountability, good for you. First off, the fact that you're wrestling is a good sign. It's a good sign because it means you're the type of human being that people should want to work for and with because you're aware and you are trying to find the balance between the two. Some days that balance seems easy, and most of the time it feels absolutely exhausting. But I would just encourage you, A, if this is a fight that you commonly find yourself fighting, good for you. And lean into the fact that it's a fight that you fight because it says a lot about you as a human and the character that you bring to the company and to your role as a leader. I think the second thing I would just want to encourage all of us in is don't get it twisted.
[00:34:18.040] - Brandon
Try to be bullish on the fact that accountability is love. Accountability is a sign of respect to a human in the relationship that you have with them. As a leader and as a leader and as a steward of an organization, it is absolutely your job to create accountability. It is an honorable role for you to hold. And I would encourage you in that, too.
[00:34:41.510] - Chris
I feel like in some ways, I've been a little bit more of a late bloomer in this area of holding people accountable than maybe you. And I think probably, no doubt, some of that comes from your early military experience of being taught how to lead and hold people accountable, hold the line. But for me, and I've talked about it before on the podcast, as somebody has come in that wooing side of the business of persuading and winning people over and getting people to like me as a sales rep, which is so much of what a sales rep does, transitioning to a role of leadership. The very first hard thing that I encountered was, I can't just be my sales rep's friends. And yet, overcoming that instinct to woo and cajol as now a leader was like, it's been years in process And I feel like in many ways, I'm still growing in that area, that willingness to bring honesty to the relationship, even when it may conflict with the person, quote, liking me, right? But I think this has been helpful for me in really understanding what is accountability. For me, I had this realization, gosh, a few years ago.
[00:35:49.830] - Chris
I can't remember if I was talking to Amy, one of the executive coaches that you and I've worked with or what. But I made this connection with what you were referring to, which is if I'm not 100% honest with my people, whether it be my peers, clients. Right now, it's primarily clients that I'm working with and giving honest input to. But when I have my sales teams in the field, I'm not honest with them. I'm preventing them from being their best because I might be the only person that has enough visibility into their role and their behavior to really give them concrete feedback that they can improve on. So that's number one, is I may be the only voice that really has an opportunity to speak to that with credibility. And two, if I don't say those things, if I don't offer those things, what I'm inadvertently communicating is, I don't think you have what it takes to level up. I don't think you have it in you. And or I don't think you have the character or the intelligence to respond appropriately to my feedback. But essentially, I'm telling them, you don't have what it takes to be what I need and the team needs you to be, which is the worst message.
[00:37:01.140] - Chris
Is number one, not giving those people the intel that can help them grow. And then them ultimately come to the conclusion later. It's why there's a few bridges I've earned over the years as a business owner working with sales reps is for the first When I was a State Farm agent, I had five employees, and they were all salespeople, effectively. Yeah. And I was notorious for this. I get really frustrated with the results. I wouldn't want to have the difficult conversations. I'd hear things from my office of them not quite saying things the right way, the way I trained them, not putting in the activity that I asked them to do. And I would just sit on it. Well, maybe I should just give more time. I don't want them to think I'm a micromanager asshole boss. And so I just sit on that feedback. And then ultimately, I get so frustrated with their lack of doing what I need them to do Then I finally bring it up with loads of stacked up frustration. And then they feel about an inch tall because like, oh, shit, I didn't realize that Nordic was unhappy with my...
[00:37:55.840] - Chris
Right? Yeah. And I burn those bridges because they felt like a little piece of It's just a crap. They just felt like, oh, my God, this has been going on for months. And he must think I'm just a total lame ass. There's all these things that come with that conversation by not being honest, not holding the line with accountability. It's terribly embarrassing. And I still at times, I'll think of those past employees. And at the time, I thought, well, yeah, forget them. They were just a terrible salesperson. And now in hindsight, I'm like, no, no, no. I was a terrible boss. I failed them. They didn't fail me. I failed them because I was unwilling to have the difficult conversations with them that could have potentially helped them grow and improve. When I started shifting and thinking about it that way, that I'm not being nice, I'm not being caring, I'm not being a good boss by avoiding those critical conversations, I'm actually being exactly the opposite. Yeah, that's right. I actually am being the asshole by not having those direct conversations about their performance. I'm failing them. I'm sabotaging my own self and my own business, my own goals.
[00:39:13.030] - Brandon
Well, and I think ultimately, in addition to that, what you're doing is you're making your role miserable.
[00:39:18.570] - Chris
Oh, gosh.
[00:39:19.580] - Brandon
You're just making life miserable. I don't want to say it's all controllable. We just can play a much more sophisticated role in contributing to the It's the whole Henry Cloud thing.
[00:39:32.760] - Chris
You always get what you create or allow.
[00:39:35.510] - Brandon
Or what you allow. I just think the majority of us in our businesses, and we go through cycles, we are doing more of the allowing, or I guess more It's just the extremes. I think our listeners, I'm sure we could probably make some guesses on how people maybe are oriented more naturally if they're listening to our show. But and...
[00:39:55.560] - Chris
What are you saying that people listen to our show are just of the more awesome variety?
[00:39:59.350] - Brandon
I think everyone that listens to our show is on the brink of awesome. I am fairly biased about that.
[00:40:04.470] - Chris
They're all winners.
[00:40:05.610] - Brandon
They're all winners in my book. But anyways, I think that leaders just tend to fall in one bucket or the other, and neither one of them is right. I think the real honor comes from we can find the balance in both. It's worth it.
[00:40:18.140] - Chris
It is. It is worth it.
[00:40:19.670] - Brandon
It's just worth it.
[00:40:20.930] - Chris
It's still worth it. It's worth it on all fronts. I can say that, too. I mentioned this difficult conversation I had with my wife following this, talking to a friend who's got a It's always worth it. Whenever I have, and my wife has these conversations with me, too. It's not just me going to my wife, right? Whenever we wade through the murky water of trying to balance, Hey, I love you and... I love you and... I'm troubled by this. I'm frustrated by that. Whenever we wade through those waters, it's like we always get through to the other side, and we're better off, both of us. Both of us, because I'm not holding, I'm not carrying something, some grievance or frustration with the other, and the other knows exactly how I'm feeling. They're not guessing, where do I stand with this other person, which so many of us move through our relationships not knowing quite where we stand or the other people around us always on eggshells, not knowing quite what you're thinking about how they're doing.
[00:41:22.730] - Brandon
It's funny. I was just taking stock. As you were chatting, I was just taking stock of the most memorable reach out that I've had from past relationships or even current relationships, where somebody's thanking me for the role that I played as a leader. You know what, man? It is literally one for one. Every single one of them had a scenario where we had to dig into some very uncomfortable behaviors. Every one of them has had, if not one, multiple scenarios where we had to have very tough conversations. Not always because of their behavior, sometimes because of mine. Every one of those relationships that I can point towards where somebody came out from the past and said, Hey, thank you for doing what you did as my employer, as my leader. Every one of them, there was these moments in the relationship or hard accountability conversations. Adjustments were required and behaviors, approaches. Every one of them, man.
[00:42:32.660] - Chris
It makes sense to me because you know what? I think there's a parallel with customer experience, right? It's like, nobody expects a company to be perfect. So the question in the back of people's minds at all Sometimes, whether you're hiring a plumber for your own home or you're hiring a vendor for your property management company or something else, it's like, you know there are no such thing as perfect service providers. There's no such thing as a perfect restaurant, a perfect company. So the question in the back of your mind is, when When something negative happens, how are they going to respond to that negative thing? I think that's why that happens. Why those tend to be the most memorable experiences is when things go sideways, when there's some negative thing going on, how does this person act or manage me or lead me, react, respond when things aren't great? Because all of us, I think, naturally have the capacity to joy and be happy and excited when everything is just swimmingly. It's just like our spouse runs to the front door and is kissing our face and has an afternoon snack. It's like all of us know how to behave well when everything's going right and we're being treated the way we want to be treated and we're behaving well.
[00:43:51.610] - Chris
But it's like, no, we're all curious. How is this person going to treat me when things aren't right, when I'm not doing well or they're not doing well? What is their response going to be in those situations? And I think it's the biggest trust building opportunity.
[00:44:06.430] - Brandon
Yeah.
[00:44:07.050] - Chris
I agree.
[00:44:08.280] - Brandon
I think you're spot on. Yeah, I think you're spot on.
[00:44:10.910] - Chris
Well, is it okay if I land the plane?
[00:44:13.110] - Brandon
Yeah. Take a whack at it. I think I'm ready to close shop on this.
[00:44:16.850] - Chris
That's not normally your role, Nordak. I'm the plane lander. Listen, if this has held value for you and or you're in a reflective place here in Q4, you're thinking about the business, you're thinking about your own leadership, your own behaviors. And maybe it's stirring up some failings, something you're thinking of some situations and you're like, Man, I need to process through that. I maybe need to even go talk to somebody about how I handled that past situation. But you're in that reflective posture, hang there. I think that's our takeaway. This stuff is worth thinking about with the balance we're striking in our relationships, not just at work, but at home. And then further, if you're thinking about your business this next year and you've considered what would it look like and how could it potentially be an accelerator for us to work with an outside coach or consultant to chase the targets we've set for ourselves, the pro forma that you're maybe building out right now with your leadership team. And you're like, what would it look like for us to have an outside part that help us drive accountability, equip our team, make the necessary changes, execute, et cetera.
[00:45:21.490] - Chris
We have some client slots that are opening up here, actually, in Q4, for new clients to come in. We're growing as a team, and so it's giving us greater capacity. If you're interested in that, reach out to us, floodlightgrp. Com. Reach out. Kick the tires. We'll have an initial meet and greet call. We'd love to talk shop and learn about your business. And if it seems like there's some alignment there, we can give you all the details and take you through the process. But a lot of people are in that mindset right now. What are we going to do for 2025? And what needs to change within our business in order for us to hit the targets we've set out for ourselves? Yeah. Because there's always something that needs to move. There's always some aspect of our behaviors across the team or as us as owners that needs to change so that we can become the person or the team that can do what we've set out to do. You and I, I mean, part of the reason why we started Floodlight is that you and I have hired consultants and coaches throughout our career.
[00:46:20.530] - Chris
We have them now. We had them when we were coming up in the industry. There's something about having a third party outside of the business that's helped drive Live progress.
[00:46:31.640] - Brandon
It's a special relationship.
[00:46:32.980] - Chris
It is a special relationship. It's been really an honor to build out Floodlight and to, at scale, be able to have that impact. Anyways, if you've been thinking about that and you want to kick the tires, floodlightgrp. Com, you can snoop around there and then hit us with a message and we'll get on the phone and we can talk about your situation and how we could potentially partner.
[00:46:52.530] - Brandon
Love it. Okay. All right. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots.
[00:47:00.530] - Chris
If you're enjoying the show, if you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.
