[00:00:00.000] - Chris
Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart, and Boots podcast? I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us. Welcome back to the Head, Heart, and Boots podcast. I'm Chris.
[00:00:11.230] - Brandon
And I'm Brandon.
[00:00:12.240] - Brandon
Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead.
[00:00:17.630] - Brandon
This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours.
[00:00:20.870] - Chris
I'm noticing that, and I really appreciate it.
[00:00:23.020] - Chris
I thought you did that on purpose.
[00:00:24.060] - Brandon
No, I don't.
[00:00:25.300] - Brandon
I didn't, and I am not happy with it.
[00:00:28.370] - Chris
What's up, dude? I beat you to it. I saw that.
[00:00:31.760] - Brandon
I literally... People won't know this because it'll get edited out, but I literally heard you take your breath in getting ready to...
[00:00:39.490] - Chris
Yeah, to snatch the opening remark.
[00:00:42.270] - Chris
You're so funny, dude.
[00:00:43.780] - Chris
I know. All right, so we're going to I'm not going to talk about. All right, okay. All right, so if you're brand new to... If you're brand new to the Head Heart & Boots podcast, well, then you don't know what's going on. You're like, Oh, my gosh, what's happening?
[00:00:54.910] - Brandon
Who are these guys?
[00:00:56.320] - Chris
So the Head Hard and Boots show is This is what Brandon and I think of as our Founder's podcast. We're the Founders of Floodlight Consulting Group, amongst other things. And this is our show where we talk about industry things, we talk about the service industries. We talk We talk philosophy, we talk marriage. It all comes up. But I think the common thread here is this is a show for service leaders. The whole headhart and boots thing is we want to speak to the whole person. We're not business We're not business people and dads. We're not business people and husbands. We're not business people and golfers on the weekend. We're just people. We get into all the things here on the show. For those of you who have no idea who Floodlight Consulting Group is, we'll certainly Google us. Other people will tell you who we are, and you can find our website, and there's a lot of stuff there. But essentially, we partner with restorers to help them grow and scale their companies and create a ton of enterprise value along the way through a tailored approach, working with consultants who are all past owners.
[00:01:59.010] - Chris
They've been in your They've been down that road already. If you're kicking the tires on consultants or coaches or whatever you want to call them, you owe it to yourself to go to floodlightgrp. Com and at least check out what our team offers.
[00:02:12.920] - Brandon
Yeah, and at least hang around, listen to a show or two. This is the first time that you're checking us out. Oh, by the way, actually. So something fun coming up, guys. We don't have the drawing item yet. It's still top secret and in development, but we're getting ready to to throw out a bit of an invitation and a drawing. And so we're obviously on a push for followers. And obviously, some great Google reviews are super helpful as well, or I guess in this particular case, Apple podcast reviews or that thing. Anyways, we're really excited to get more traction there and invite more people into the sphere so that we can exchange some of these ideas and just remind people they don't have to go it alone. We'll be making some announcements on our social channels here over the next several weeks about that. Keep an eye on it. We're going to sling some really cool swag. Pay attention, be monitoring that. I think on this first go, I think we're going to be more in the outdoor activity zone.
[00:03:14.970] - Chris
Would youThat's my idea? I do. I said you and Wayne.
[00:03:16.610] - Brandon
That's pretty rad, huh? I like what's happening here.
[00:03:18.370] - Chris
Oh, man, if we go that route, guys, it's fun.
[00:03:20.780] - Brandon
There's some cool stuff going on.
[00:03:21.770] - Chris
Can I say one more thing to you? A lot of you that are listening are restores. It might be a project manager, a GM, a technician, an owner, However, we're continuing to get more and more feedback from outside the industry of people that are roofers or retail construction guys or remodelers or something that are listening to show. If you're a restaurer and you have a show that you really like, you might consider it sending it to your drywall guy. Yeah, for sure. Or sending it to your plumber partner that you use or whatever, because we're just hearing from a lot of people that the stuff that all of us deal with and struggle with and learn and think about in the restoration industry, look, we're all the same. Yeah. The services are the services. We're in the service industry. And so a lot of these shows, as all of you know who've been regular listeners, it almost doesn't matter what trade you're in. We're talking about just the real stuff of owning businesses, having families, all that thing. Feel free to think about sending it to your subs or other folks you work with, adjusters even that you work with and enjoy talking to.
[00:04:22.560] - Chris
Anyways, okay.
[00:04:23.830] - Brandon
Okay. Here's where we're going today. As many of you that listen on a fairly regular basis, you guys know that a lot of our content or what we decide to talk about is because it's stuff we're currently wrestling with and have wrestled with many times in our own businesses and past teams that we've operated with. And one of the things that is just so common, and we see it inside our client book, we see it inside just our peers, businesses, our friends and family sphere. There's just this trouble, I guess, when we think that we've trained our team, we've downloaded some content, we've shared with them the why, We've done a great job of giving them the principles of what we're trying to accomplish and what it is that we're going to be changing or modifying. And yet we just then proceed for next several months to be frustrated potentially with the outcome or the adoption. It really just ends up not moving the needle as much as we anticipated, and certainly not as much as we were excited about before we launched into this new endeavor or initiative. One of the things you'll also see is that at the end of the day, man, so much of what we all know or learn or are taught or leveraging in our favor for success, look, most these ideas are not new.
[00:05:38.480] - Brandon
They're just a reminder, in more cases than not, of some real tried and trued advice that's been relevant for a long, long time. This idea that we're going to tackle today, we are certainly not the brainchild of it. This is not a new idea or concept. It really is a reminder on how important the basics are to the success of the organization. What we want to talk about is this idea or the difference between coaching versus training. And I think just to get us launched, here's the way that Chris and I and our team look at this. So think training as knowledge transfer. And again, we're not making this stuff up. These are not new concepts by any stretch of the imagination, but training is knowledge transfer. And then coaching, and what makes it so valuable, is that that's where and how we get real skill transfer. Okay, and if we think about when we're driving new initiatives, many of you guys that listen to the show are committed to growth in several different arenas. One, you're committed to your own personal growth and probably a strong chance that that's true if you're listening to our show.
[00:06:44.200] - Brandon
And I think outside of that, based on your role or the position inside your sphere, inside the company, you're probably connected to organizational growth and advancement as well. And I think that if we don't understand this coaching versus training concept, I think that it is a strong chance that it's going to neutralize the success of our business or slow our growth and change and our ability to adapt. Certainly, it can affect you and your confidence as a leader or an influencer with inside your organization because we get so frustrated when we believe we've done an outstanding job communicating what needs to be communicated. Then the change just doesn't follow. It doesn't happen.
[00:07:25.860] - Chris
This is such a big topic that you're bringing up. A couple of things that come out for me right now is just even thinking back to early days of yours and I's consulting. When we were working directly with clients, I think some of it's ego, and I think all of us as leaders, it doesn't matter if you're an owner or a Department Manager, a PM or an estimator, whatever, a new admin manager. I think for a lot of us, especially in our first round of leadership, we want to be the one that's given all the answers. We see that as our role. Is my downline people, if they don't know something or they're not doing something right, that I'm going to give them the right thing to do. I'm going to give them the answer to the question that they have. I feel like in hindsight, while we were able to have, still have a huge impact because giving people the right answers does have an impact. You can impact people in a positive way. That was a lot of early days. When we first started consulting, we were consulting out of our experience and helping correct wrong thinking, giving people right thinking, giving them the right answers to the problem in front of them.
[00:08:29.990] - Chris
I think what we weren't fully grasping at the time and has become more and more apparent as we've learned and grown, and as we've also onboarded other consultants that have shown us other things. As you start adding more and more people to your team, and I feel like we experience this in the other teams we've led, as you start getting more and more people on your team, and in some cases, higher and higher caliber people, because we're all trying to hire the best people we can, you start to notice things that weren't super obvious before. But one of those things being that in order to to actually coach somebody. In order to actually help transform somebody into the best version of themselves, whether it's a downline employee or a business partner or even yourself, we have to help them shift how they perceive things and how they think about a particular thing. I noticed this with my kids, and I'm trying to be, Oh, man, I'm trying to be more present to this because I just tend to be a teller. I see a behavior in my children or a choice that they're making, and I just need to set...
[00:09:29.410] - Chris
There's something in me that just springs up, and I just want to tell them the right thing. Yeah, for sure. Because I don't want them to suffer. I don't want them to go too far down the road and then realize the error of their ways. I'm just like, Tell. Oh, you should do this instead. Of course, how much better? Really, two parts. One, is if I can help them come to the right answer themselves. That's the gold standard. But then two, if I can ask great questions that help them look at the problem the opportunity or the situation differently. That's coaching. I used to think that coaching was telling or showing people the right way, the thing, the best practice. Frankly, I operated out of that almost exclusively. When before flood light. I had an executive coaching business, and I wasn't coaching.
[00:10:20.540] - Brandon
You were telling the stuff out of things.
[00:10:22.420] - Chris
I was entertaining them with great answers. I was really great at making friends and getting them to trust me and tell me things. Then I was telling them things, and they were wooed and wowed. But I noticed my impact was limited because I was giving them answers to specific situations. Then we'd encounter another situation that was a little bit different, and it was like we were starting from scratch again. Yeah, that's a good point. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure.
[00:10:50.590] - Brandon
It's the most obvious, I think, once you see it, limiter to the whole telling approach. Well, I like where you were in there. Let's actually just do that. Let's finish defining the difference and certainly lean in post that. Chris just laid out a really great example. The difference between, let's say, training and coaching as an example is in a coaching environment, we're asking questions. We're soliciting the individual to engage the content, to engage the training maybe that they had gone through. Now we're trying to get them to think about real-world application. I think what you just highlighted is in an environment where we're not telling and we're asking questions, you're teaching people how to fish. They're able to understand a principle and how it applied in this situation. But I think also it keeps their head up high enough where they can see where that's likely applicable, again, in a different type of situation. I think that's a common mistake, and I think we've all, and continue, to experience those differences in the way that our team behaves. I mean, how many times do we go through training with our techs and we think to ourselves, okay, they're ready to and roll, and they get out and they run into the very first slight hiccup in the process, and they're completely blown out of commission because we told them a lot of stuff, but we didn't teach them to think about at a higher level, how are they approaching the situation.
[00:12:16.190] - Brandon
I think the questions as a powerful tool is a big identifier in terms of the difference between training and coaching. I think another thing that you see is in a training environment, not saying these don't It happened, but it's less common, I would say, or you would be shifting into a coaching environment when you begin to do things like role play. Again, training, remember, I'm downloading information. I'm sharing it through a deck. I'm sharing it through this verbal exchange. I might be showing graphics, but I'm still training. I'm downloading information from me to this person. We begin to move into a coaching environment when we start to practice it, when we put it into play. And so role-playing is more of a characteristic of you beginning to coach someone. I think another way to think about this is that in a training environment, the time fix or the time spend is more based on the curriculum. So it's, Hey, this thing is going to take 30 minutes. This is a 60-minute training seminar. I think what you see in a coaching environment is an openness to remain in the moment so that you can fully, I guess, extract, if you will, what needs to happen in that situation.
[00:13:31.070] - Brandon
I would say maybe another thing to consider is a real sense of awareness and presence in that conversation. Because if we're coaching, we're not just downloading information, meaning it's not a one-way communication. It means we need to be prepared to receive and receive well because that should influence ultimately part of your approach, the posture that you're taking, some of the language that you're using then in that coaching environment. So again, I think another characteristic in a coaching environment is it's a two-way conversation versus a one-way, a downloading of information. And then I would say the last one that comes to mind for me is, I I think there's a little bit more depth in what the outcome is. In training, it's like, Hey, I need them to know this stuff. I need them to understand this concept, so I'm going to train it. But then when we move into this coaching environment, there's almost more of a digging down and trying to connect the value of what this individual is learning and how it has a positive or a profound effect on their role in the organization or their personal life. It's the whole, you begin to move into what's in it for me.
[00:14:44.410] - Brandon
But I think to do it well, it's this idea that you are actually engaged for the sake of the other person. Yeah. Maybe that's the easiest. Just think about that. Training environment, I'm telling. Do you need to be super engaged? Not really. Again, we're downloading information, right? I think when we're in a coaching environment, it's more like, what can this person achieve with this? What's in it for them? What's the outcome that I can influence or potentially take part in?
[00:15:14.500] - Chris
There's an angle on this that I've been thinking about a lot over the last few days. I had a really good conversation with Wayne, and Wayne initiated it. Wayne had a bit of an accountability, a conflict conversation that he wanted to have with me. There's actually a couple of really interesting of concepts here. We may need to develop this other idea in a different show, but our mentor that we look to for our mentoring and coaching, we had a meeting with them in Chicago this past year. I remember one of the concepts that he taught us was the idea of having conflict meetings. Yeah. Do you remember this? Yeah, it was really cool. It's just a very transparent, feedback-rich way of dealing with conflict inside the workplace and within your workplace relationships. Frankly, it's probably really awesome for marriage and children and everything else to just be very direct. He describes, say, approaching the person that you have a conflict with and saying, Hey, I have a conflict with you, and I'd like to schedule some time for us to talk through it together. How does tomorrow at one o'clock or with three be better?
[00:16:12.740] - Chris
You schedule it and not give a ton of detail. Let the weight of it of, Hey, there's a conflict between us that I want to address, and yet create a space to address that. Wayne had one of these conflict meetings he wanted to have with me. Where I'm going with this is that Wayne took a very interesting approach that I think is a really great best practice when it comes to coaching. He tied his feedback to me, the nature of the conflict, to my values. This was really powerful.
[00:16:43.790] - Brandon
This is totally in line with what we were just talking about.
[00:16:47.560] - Chris
Incredibly powerful. That's good. Incredibly powerful. What he essentially said to me when he opened the conversation was, Hey, Chris, I've got a conflict with this pattern of behavior that I've experienced with you. We're a relatively We're a small team here at Floodley. Very much so. Everything every single one of us does has an impact on the rest of the team. I'm no exception to that. Wayne had been observing this pattern of behavior, and it was affecting him, and inevitably, it was spilling over and affecting some of the other people on the team. But most importantly, Wayne believed it was in conflict with what I say about myself and what I've articulated as my personal values and the person that I want to be. Those who listen to the show, you hear me talk about, I aspire to be a really good person and to have an impact on people, and there's so many different facets of that. Well, Wayne felt like this certain behavior that I'd been expressing was in conflict with who I say I am.
[00:17:46.810] - Brandon
Yeah.
[00:17:47.610] - Chris
And so he brought it up to me. He said, Hey, look, I wanted to talk to you about this because number one, I care about you as a fellow colleague. I love being a part of the floodlight team. And three, I really believe that this is in conflict with who you really want to be. I believe that you actually want to be this person, and this thing is totally in conflict with it. And then he went on to identify the behavior, talk through the impact he felt like it was having, et cetera. He just said almost like a grandfatherly comment. He's like, Look, I don't need you to... I don't need an apology or anything of that sort. I just really wanted to ask you to think about, just reaffirm for yourself, is this really a value of yours? If it is, consider the conflict. Don't try through willpower to be like, Well, I'll never do that again. He's like, I really am just asking you. I didn't know if you thought about it this way or if this was maybe a blind spot. I would just ask you to consider this connection between who you say you are and how this behavior has been in conflict with it.
[00:18:52.720] - Chris
I was just like, whoa. It's so good. It's so good. Such leadership gold. It was profoundly impactful to me. That's right. Because was I aware of that behavior? Well, I was. I wasn't conscious to it. I wasn't actively thinking, okay, this is having a negative downstream effect on my partners, my team. I wasn't present to it. When he made that connection for me, I was able to make a really profoundly tight connection of, yeah, no, this is right. Yeah, no, I didn't. I lost track of the values connection. That's right.
[00:19:26.760] - Brandon
Ultimately, then, what's the outcome? It's going to an influence a change in behavior. Yes. That's really the goal of coaching, right? I mean, that was master level, honestly. Yeah, for sure. It's probably for most of you listening, it's probably not lost on you. So owner versus team member.
[00:19:45.490] - Chris
Yeah, right. Obviously. Yeah, yeah. I figuratively, I sign this person's check. This is coming out of... It's our money, right? That's right. Yes.
[00:19:55.750] - Brandon
So it's a master class. That was a master example. But I think what keyed in on, and I think it's worth taking some notes on, is what is the outcome? What are we expecting to experience if we're coaching someone? I think that is the gold standard. We want a change in behavior. We want that because it makes them better, stronger, faster, more effective. It changes their influence in our organization. Then ultimately, we want our team to benefit from that change in behavior, that adoption of skill, because we coached and not just told.
[00:20:31.830] - Chris
Well, and I'm incredibly grateful for it.
[00:20:35.340] - Chris
And answer force. We tend not to give the attention to our call and take that I think we really ought to have as restores. And of course, one of the biggest challenges we have with our call intake, whether it's an in-house receptionist or a service like answer force, is what do you do when your receptionist goes out to lunch? Well, answer force makes that very easy to solve for. They're 24/7. You have a receptionist or a call intake person that's out for maternity leave, out on vacation, et cetera, et Andcetera. Answerforce has a solution to all of those things. And I think, too, it also solves for us having a very consistent, repeatable call intake process. We all know how important that is.
[00:21:10.410] - Chris
A hundred %.
[00:21:11.410] - Brandon
And the cool thing is actually, we just hung out with these guys, and they let us know, let us in on some big feature updates that have recently been pushed through the system. So first, verified contacts, right? So verified contacts, basically it allows the system to understand that this is a repeat caller, and then it allows them to auto capture and fill those details as part of the intake process. So smoother, more professional intake, much easier to give that client that impression. That's also commercial. This is the first time you've called, right? Yeah. We'll listen to the rest of these sets because I think they're super applicable to our commercial opportunity. Specialized scripting, okay? This is great because this is everything from holiday shifts, after-hour shifts. I mean, you name it. There's different reasons or different layers of the cake, if you will, just based on what's going on in terms of call volume, what's going on time of day. And so with specialized scripting, the script then will match that. And so it's shifting live, if you will, along with that richer context of what's actually happening in the business. Then this other thing, I thought this was super cool, is dedicated phone numbers.
[00:22:13.610] - Brandon
So going back to that repeat client or that key client or customer, we now can associate a specific phone number to them. And so what happens is, is they get received very uniquely. I can imagine creating a custom script for that client. We now can recognize a repeat caller and autofill and speed up their intake. And then on top of that, there's a specialized number that's dedicated to them. So you really get to marry up that professional service offering that we're promising, if you will, during the prospect.
[00:22:45.100] - Chris
Right from the jump, if you've got a commercial client with specific needs or specific expectations, build that into the script to call intake.
[00:22:51.930] - Brandon
It's beautiful.
[00:22:53.250] - Brandon
Super powerful. Another one is just access to information wherever you are. I don't know how many of you are already currently using to answer for us, you should take it seriously in terms of getting a demo and checking them out. But if and when you shift over to them as a partner, the cool thing is now is that you've got access to all this data, all this information on the go from anywhere on your mobile device. So you can literally check inbound outbound calls. You can listen to recordings. So actively coach the team midstream, right? And so, again, just a ton of efficiency, a ton of automation, and just higher levels of customization coming out of answer for And it is so stinking affordable.
[00:23:32.930] - Chris
This isn't just for big multimillion dollar companies. This is for you that's still working out of your home shop, your garage. And it's also for you that are running a $25 million operation with four locations. It's pretty extraordinary. They work with some of the biggest companies in our industry and many of the smallest ones as well.
[00:23:50.320] - Brandon
So good. Actionable.
[00:23:51.620] - Brandon
So, guys, we have talked about our friendship and relationship to these guys for a long time. Many of you know in the recent, probably, year and over the last several months, just this hyper focus on the efficiency and quality of our estimating.
[00:24:06.220] - Brandon
At the end of the day, our cash flow is heavily impacted by our team's skill and competency around writing a really comprehensive sheet and really making sure that the scope is accurate. One of the powerful things that Actionable has is their actual Xactimate profile. This profile is a live AI tool that's monitoring you as you write the estimate and as When you're implementing specific line items, it's helping you be sure that you've really taken into full account all the individual elements and line items associated with this element of the scope that you're trying to accomplish. I'm not going to highlight any specific teams, but we have heard robust numbers from teams using this. We're hearing anything from 5%, 6%, even 8% top-line growth, specifically from the quality of their estimates increasing.
[00:24:56.500] - Chris
I remember when they rolled this out to you that one of the use cases or part of the value that they were trying to hit on is the ability for us to bring up a new estimator quickly up to the standard and competency and the results, ultimately, of the more experienced estimators on the team. This is an incredible onboarding a training tool to get somebody up to where they're very, very competent and producing quality estimates just that much faster.
[00:25:22.490] - Brandon
Way faster. Just one last thing I want to hyper index on is they have just an absolute boatload of white papers and F and supporting notes. This is something that you could participate in being a member with Actionable Insights. But guys, we all know that getting our estimates approved in that negotiation phase is hard right now. It just feels like every carrier is significantly understand staff. They're fighting for air, we're fighting for air, and anything we can do to reduce that friction is better. The better we are at providing really good support for what we're calling out in our scope and why we're calling for it, the better. These white papers, these F9 support notes are super powerful.
[00:26:02.760] - Brandon
Man, it's been a little while, but we've been refueling the relationship with CNR quite a bit lately, and that's been good, man.
[00:26:09.590] - Brandon
I think both teams got so ding busy. We had a tough time locking in and getting some FaceTime together. But the team over at CNR has been great for our industry, you guys. We've often referred to Michelle as a friend of the industry. She really is keyed in on giving us what we need in terms of tools, communication, intel on the industry. We just continue I do encourage you guys, participate, make sure that you're receiving your quarterly copies and that you're getting all the online content that just comes in boatloads from their team. So CNR magazine, guys, pay attention, make sure that you're participating and getting your intel from that team as well. Liftify, bro. Yeah. Liftify, bro.
[00:26:48.010] - Chris
Yeah, Liftify. It's interesting. Yesterday, I was just seeing one of our clients was getting awarded their 750 Google review trophy, and they were already talking about hitting a thousand. A thousand, that's right.
[00:27:01.220] - Brandon
Which somebody has done.
[00:27:03.090] - Chris
Yes, one of our clients has done. It's remarkable, and I think the most remarkable thing that people are discovering, and we're seeing this every single day with our clients, is that when you start upping the volume of Google reviews you're getting consistently week after week, the recency. When you're getting the recency dialed in and just meaning every week you're adding Google reviews to your profile, dramatic jumps in organic phone calls and lead gen. And of course, who doesn't want that. Every single one of us, including floodlight, we want that. And that's why we've indexed on, we use Liftify to build up our Google reviews. So it's a simple turnkey service. They've really created a process for capturing the most quality Google reviews from the jobs you're already getting. So if you want to get more work, grow your revenue just off of the existing work you're already getting, Liftify is a big part of how to do that. And it's simple. It's very, very cost-effective. From our experience with Liftify and what we've seen with our clients, significantly better value and better results than many of the other platforms that some of you might already be trying.
[00:28:08.730] - Chris
So if you're not happy with the number of Google reviews you're getting, you need to reach out to Liftify. And I think as a point of reference, it's worth us saying, Liftify expects 20 to 25 % conversion. So think about that within your own numbers. If you're doing a thousand jobs a year, you should be adding 200 to 250 Google reviews to your profile every single year. If you're performing under that, you owe it to yourself to reach out to liftify. Com/ floodlight.
[00:28:35.220] - Brandon
One last thing to add to that as part of their more recent integration of AI or advancing that integration of AI, one of the big focuses for their team is gathering more live project data and analytics for you guys. Really what this is focused on is equipping all of us to create better customer experiences. Not only are they keyed in and driving Google reviews for us, but now they've actually turned the corner and began developing toolkits for us that use Liftify to actually be getting information that can help us modify our service delivery to create better client experiences. Midstream. Super powerful. Midstream. We're talking mid-job. Yeah, super powerful. All right, liftify. Com. All right, guys. Thanks for hanging out with us. Let's get back to the show.
[00:29:22.200] - Chris
I've actually talked about this offline, and I said as much to Wayne. I'm incredibly grateful you had the courage to say something. And really, the The fact that he's an employee and I'm an owner, it should be immaterial.
[00:29:35.170] - Brandon
That's our problem, if it's a problem.
[00:29:37.110] - Chris
That is absolutely our problem. I think that's another great reminder in and of a self. If you're an owner listening this call, it is so tempting as a reflex to be like, who do you think you are? I'm grateful. That wasn't my knee-jerk response, but I've had to discipline myself and cultivate that posture of, hey, I don't care who my teacher is. I want to become the best version of I can possibly be. Here was an example of Wayne was my teacher in that moment. I just think that's a great reminder for all of us as owners, including myself. Take the lessons. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't matter if it's a technician coming to you with some critical feedback. That's right. I think we all want to have listening ears. But I think if we can help people make that connection to what person do you want to be? And even better, the way Wayne approached it was, because he pays attention, he already knows the person I want to be. Yeah. He's already invested that. Oh, yeah. He already investigated that. He's already been paying attention. And so it was just incredibly powerful for him to say, Hey, Chris, I've heard what you've said about yourself.
[00:30:42.970] - Chris
And it's because With that, I wanted to bring this to your attention. Because once I made that connection, I don't know that there's anything more motivational for us as humans when we realize that a behavior that we're engaged in is in conflict with who we truly want to be. Not who Wayne wants me to be, but that I found as he shared this thing, I found it was in conflict of who I wanted to be and what I wanted to be known for. Even just in the subsequent days after that conversation, it had a profound effect on my behavior. I think of an aspect of this behavior, I encountered it again the next day, and I had the option of kicking that can down the road or engaging it. I remembered the words in Wayne's this whole conversation of, I just am confident that this is not who you are or who you want to be. That was just ringing in my head. I thought, Well, okay, I have one choice here. If I'm going to be in integrity with not only how I'm presenting myself to others, but who I want to be internally, I have one option here.
[00:31:52.760] - Chris
I have one option and one option only. I'm out of excuses. I texted you and Wayne. I'm like, I'm out of excuses. There is no other explanation. There is no outside force that is enough to prevent me from doing this thing if I truly want to be this person.
[00:32:09.690] - Brandon
Yeah, that's right. If you're committed to that outcome.
[00:32:12.870] - Chris
But that values connection.
[00:32:13.780] - Brandon
I think-I think it's huge.
[00:32:15.030] - Chris
It made me think, how do I deploy that more intentionally and more consistently in my interactions with my clients? I think it's twofold. It's when I first have to understand what their values are. It begs the question, For all of you who are owners and leaders, are we even prioritizing understanding what our people's values are? We assume. I think we almost assume that, well, if they get through the interview process, they have shared values with us. But that's very superficial. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Especially depending on how you deploy them.
[00:32:45.370] - Brandon
Oh, my gosh.
[00:32:46.170] - Chris
Do I really understand their values and the person they want to be? Well, I've got to have the right conversations on the front end to even have a sense for that.
[00:32:56.400] - Brandon
Well, and I think what you're pointing out, and this This is what you're saying when you're willing to coach someone versus just train them. I want to be careful here because training requires investment and assets and commitment and things. But I think what happens is we overrely on training to be a statement of how we feel or value the person. I think there's a difference between what someone receives when they're in a coaching environment versus when they just go to training. So one of the things that we were just talking about is just this idea of what's the deliverable almost or what's the outcome from coaching? I think one of the big things is confidence and competence, right? Know-how. They were really good about coining this as part of their platform is, what are they trying to achieve with their platform. They want to help the workforce be more confident and competent, right? Or competent and confident. The whole idea behind that is that I think we've all been in situations where a team member goes through training, they don't modify behavior right away or they're slow on the uptake. It's just this slow transition through this process, and we begin to villainize them after a while.
[00:34:08.660] - Brandon
Pretty soon, it's like they're lazy, they don't give a crap about the business, they're not aligned with our company culture. What's interesting, and I think that, man, this is way throwback, but Clint Polver talked about when he was doing a lot of the Undercover Millennial, where he would be hearing feedback directly from the employees, and it didn't tell the same story that owners were telling. Often not even close. An example, I think in this situation is in our minds, our person's lazy, they're out of alignment with our code of conduct, they don't care. The reality of it is that that individual went to training. They had information downloaded onto them, in most cases too much at one time, which I'm notorious for. They just walked out with a head full of nonsense that doesn't really have anything to attach itself to. Then they're not They're not confident, and so they withdraw. They get quiet. They're passive. They don't want to be held accountable. They don't want to be seen in a public space, like a public dashboard, because they don't know what they're fucking doing. And again, I think we've been in plenty of environments where we do know the difference when somebody just straight up doesn't give a crap.
[00:35:23.580] - Brandon
But in most cases, it's because they haven't gotten the time that it requires. And so here's what I wanted to point to a little bit. One, I think that when we... And again, don't hear me say it's either or. I'm saying that good employee development, good company culture, good progress towards growing and scaling is going to require that we build time for both and that we map both behaviors in our organizational change, in the way that we do one-on-ones, in the way that we interact with our people. One of the things I just want to encourage us, and I think your story is a perfect example of is what is the value statement we're sending when somebody walks into our office or sends us an email and says, Hey, I've got this question. And not only do you not, in a distracted manner, give them some flippant, tell you what to do, answer, and kick them out of your space. But you sit them down, you close your laptop, you focus your attention on that individual, and you dig in to ask questions. If you just think if this is you on the receiving end of this, look back at your relationships.
[00:36:32.380] - Brandon
This is the thing that drives me crazy about my own behavior. I am so good at understanding what I need, but I'm terrible often at providing it to the people around me. I don't know why we do that, but it's common. I know I certainly lived that out more times than I want to admit. But my point is that, just think about this. Somebody goes to a training in a conference room. They're sitting in there with 20 people. We're all facing the same direction. We're watching the person at the front of the room go through some boring ass slides, talk at us for an hour, two hours, eight hours. We think to ourselves as we pat ourselves on the back, Man, am I investing in my people? The value statement, honestly, from the room is... However, Again, we go back to that example. Somebody sits down, you close your laptop, you close your phone, you look them in the eye, you ask questions, you help them think through and process through potentially the training they've already been through. The value that you're making in that moment is so powerful, and it's what drives change. It also creates a safety mechanism for somebody to tell you they're not confident in what they understand about the situation.
[00:37:43.110] - Brandon
We have a chance in that moment to build confidence by building competence because we coach them beyond just the training protocol. It's powerful. I think that your story that you're talking about, granted, it's a master class on Wayne as an example, but the reality of it is it was meaningful to you the way that he addressed it. He tied it to something fundamental and it drove change in behavior. At the end of the day, if we're just playing the game to win, that outcome is more important than my ego or me being right or me thinking that I've done enough or not done enough. Who gives a shit? Do you want change or not? Okay, so tactically, here's where we all, I think, miss the mark. And again, you guys know this. We try to say this a lot when When we're on the show is we are never talking to any of our listeners as if we've got it all figured out and that we aren't compromised on similar situations or certain scenarios just like you are. The reason we have the show is to let you all know you're not alone, meaning we screw all this crap up, too.
[00:38:47.910] - Brandon
We have wins, we fail for, just like you all are, but we certainly are not masters of any of it. It's a work in process. Anyways, here's some things to consider. This is where it shows up a lot for us as consultants consultants. Again, I was listening to a podcast this morning on my way in. It was like, really talented business leader talking about the fact that they have a coach and a strategic partner. He's just literally saying, Look, I literally do this for a living, and then I go to a program, and I'm blindsided by the fact of how bad I am at living this out in my own business. And he's just talking about this weird tunnel vision that we get sucked into as soon as it's yours. And guys, we're no different. We literally consult operationally and commercial sales with clients. I'm good at telling people how to do it the right way. I've been effective as hell in my seats. I will struggle with the same stuff in our business just like you all. So it just is. Okay. That's right. So here's where How would you go with this? I think we need to approach systematic change or system and process development very differently in our organization.
[00:39:54.020] - Brandon
I think we have to map out what it is that has to change. We need to build and develop the training curriculum, the training plan, the training map, and all of that's great. But then when we talk about the time commitment, the expectation for change, if we are not building in a method to support that transition or that development with coaching, we're not going to get the outcome we want. If you're going to invest in coaching, it is going to change your time frames. One of the things that we see a lot as consultants, and again, we wrestle with it ourselves, is that we do all this planning and we think to ourselves, Man, this is a 30-day gig. I'm going to meet with the team. We're going to talk about this. I'm going to do two morning trainings, and they're going to get what they need. And presto change, 30 days later, my team is going to act differently than they did today. That That's exactly why we grow increasingly frustrated with the gap between what exists in our business and what we want to exist in our business. Because we think we're great at strategic planning, which you might be.
[00:40:57.790] - Brandon
We're great at planning and mapping out a plan, great for you. But then we fail to build in the coaching component and measuring the effectiveness of our coaching, and then we don't ultimately get what we want.
[00:41:11.750] - Chris
Here's me trying to land the plane. I think this has been good. Albeit, is this a little bit shorter session? I'm maybe more bite-sized than our normal tier.
[00:41:19.830] - Brandon
Yeah, I think you really.
[00:41:21.560] - Chris
Something that's coming up for me is this whole values thing. I'm even processing this in real-time, and I'm like, What could we do when we onboard toward people and in our existing employee relationships, how could we do a better job proactively identifying what our people's values are, what is most important to them, and what person do they want to be? What do they personally value? What I immediately jump to is I have this buddy. We were at this all-church campout, actually this last summer, and he was so gung-ho. He owns a coffee shop and he's a business owner. He got all into this value values card deck. Have you heard of this? No. It's incredible. It's this deck of the shape of playing cards. I don't know if it's 52, but there's like 50-some cards in there that all have a different value and a definition for that value on there. What you do with the deck is you do it with another person, and each person takes a turn, laying out and choosing their... Out of all of them, they take the 50, and I think there's a process like they sort down to 20 favorites out of it.
[00:42:32.110] - Chris
Then they have to narrow it down to, of those 20, what are the most compelling values? They have the deepest belief in the 10. Then they get down to five. Then they explain why they chose those five and why they're so like, such a part of who they are or who they want to be. And then the other person does it and works their way down from the 50 down to their top five values. It was a really awesome exercise. I I'm just thinking of this in the moment, doing that at the campground. We're sitting down by the river and he's like, Hey, can I do this values exercise with you? And I'm like, Sure, whatever. This is great. But it was really good because just like the personality profile things we take, where normally it's multiple choice, choose the answer that feels most real to you or something. It's that same deal. You read all these values and part of you wants to emulate all of them because you want to be the best person you can be. They're like, Well, yeah, that's important to me, too. But you to choose which is the most important.
[00:43:33.070] - Chris
This might be something we need to do in our next quarterly. Yeah, maybe. On-site. But I think just this question of or this challenge to everybody who's listening to is, how incredible or how much more effective Could we be if we were more intentional about identifying each other's values, like the example I gave with Wayne. The only reason Wayne was able to have such an effective conversation with me is because he listened, observed, and he and I have had many dialogs talks about integrity and values and just situational things that he knew. He's like, Chris is out of alignment. But I think oftentimes, again, we don't know that. It's like, okay, what could we be doing to identify those things about our people and connect with our folks on that level? Because how much more motivational when I go to have a corrective conversation with them and instead of me saying, Hey, this is out of alignment with our process, which is a problem because of X, Y, and Z, all real. But how much more powerful is it to say, Hey, this was out of alignment with how I see you as a person.
[00:44:36.040] - Chris
Sure. I have come to know you as a person that values X, and when I saw this or I saw you do this, I was a little bit puzzled. I was a little shocked that I was seeing that from you because I've always known you to be this person. I feel like I owed it to you to point out that dissonance. How much more powerful is that versus, Hey, you were out of with our process. Because at some level, who really gives a crap? Well, yeah, I was out of line with the process because it was annoying or it was inconvenient. There's all kinds of reasons why we ignore the process. But when it's about who I am, I can't as easily ignore that. Because me taking that shortcut because it was more convenient or whatever, well, that doesn't matter when it comes to who I am or who I want to be.
[00:45:23.160] - Brandon
It's the other side of that whole value, coaching value statement, I is, yeah, it's an amazing opportunity to address issues or concerns with behavior or alignment or lack of alignment. But again, too, it starts with how do we even prepare that individual to be able to do the job that we're asking them to do? Well, we've got to deploy the same energy. We've got to engage in a deeper level than us just downloading information. If it was that simple, people would just watch YouTube videos before you hired them, and then they would just come onto your team and do all the things that you want them to do. Okay, here's two parting nuggets.
[00:46:03.300] - Chris
Are you going to summarize?
[00:46:04.240] - Brandon
No, I'm not going to summarize. Just a couple of things I think that are actionable and tactical. One is, as you guys continue to make change in your business, because we're moving forward, right? Consider Have we properly identified the amount of coaching that will be required? Again, when we talk about coaching, we're talking about role-playing, we're talking about leading with questions, we're talking about helping the individual learn how to apply the things that they have been trained on. Because until they begin to apply them, and unless they apply them in a systematic, tempered fashion, they're not going to be confident enough to go out there and do what it is that you need them to do. Just consider, are we coaching enough? Where do we need to add more coaching into the system? Certainly, before you deploy any systematic change to systems and processes, consider what have we done to identified the need for coaching and what are we going to do about it? Then the second thing that I would say, and I think Chris's story is, again, it just points to this so perfectly. One of the biggest things, if you just think about all the different shows that we've had, all the different guests that we've had on that they talk about culture, whether it be somebody from One Tom, somebody from Thomasville.
[00:47:20.950] - Brandon
There's this reality that relationship is part of the bedrock of why that culture is winning and why it's sustainable. I think this is one of those practices that we can lean into to create that relationship and have a healthy impact and say a lot of positive things about the value that we have for our team is by teaching leaders in our organization to become coaches. They can't skip the skillset of coaching, and they can't not have enough time to give coaching to their people. If we are under staffed with leadership because everyone's to the maximum output and nobody's coaching their people.
[00:48:02.670] - Chris
Hard to scale. Hard to scale and grow. Hard to scale and grow.
[00:48:04.670] - Brandon
Yeah, it's a problem. Okay, gang, take your first steps, obviously. Thanks for hanging out with us, and we'll see on the next one.
[00:48:11.240] - Brandon
All right, everybody.
[00:48:14.400] - Brandon
Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart, and Boots.
[00:48:17.600] - Chris
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