[00:00:00.100] - Chris Nordyke
Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head, Heart Boots Podcast?
[00:00:04.600] - Chris Nordyke
I can't tell you that reaction, how much that means to us.
[00:00:07.790] - Chris Nordyke
Welcome back to the Head, Heart Boots Podcast. I'm Chris.
[00:00:11.420] - Brandon Reece
And I'm Brandon. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours.
[00:00:21.120] - Chris Nordyke
I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose.
[00:00:24.070] - Brandon Reece
No, I don't. I didn't. And I am not happy with it. Brother. Yo, man, I can look right deep into your eyes, Christopher.
[00:00:32.000] - Chris Nordyke
It's a little different.
[00:00:32.680] - Brandon Reece
This is very different. I'm a little uneasy. It's going to take a moment to get used to this.
[00:00:36.120] - Chris Nordyke
You came fully loaded here. You got your notepad, your laptop, the whole bit.
[00:00:39.420] - Brandon Reece
I just technically wanted everyone that watched to see how productive I am at all times.
[00:00:44.160] - Chris Nordyke
Well, I'm just really glad that you have your glasses here handy in case you have to look at your phone. You won't have to like, you won't have to hold it 49 inches away from your face to read. That'll be good. 36.
[00:00:53.260] - Brandon Reece
Yeah. Let's, uh, if anything, we're accurate here. What happened here? Did you drop that in Alaska?
[00:00:58.710] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah, I've dropped it a bunch of times.
[00:01:00.490] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:01:00.570] - Chris Nordyke
All right, it's time for a new one.
[00:01:02.130] - Brandon Reece
So let's talk about the studio. One, we haven't recorded for a little— a couple weeks. We haven't been on the airs, the interwebs. So we should chat about that a little bit and then we can get into a, a pod.
[00:01:12.510] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah, this is, uh, this is really amazing. You and Janna did an incredible job.
[00:01:16.990] - Chris Nordyke
Psyched.
[00:01:17.210] - Brandon Reece
I'm really psyched, actually.
[00:01:18.890] - Chris Nordyke
Reboot.
[00:01:19.350] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:01:19.750] - Brandon Reece
So we are gonna probably put out a little, kind of a little reel to kind of show the journey. But for you that have always just kind of tuned into iTunes, right? Yeah, podcast, podcast, i— Apple things, stuff where you record and listen. We've rebooted everything, so the studio is being re-engineered for more live. Basically, our intention is we're going to start having way more guests in-house. We've got a slew of guests that are getting ready to get kind of concrete in their schedule right now. I think we have 3 or 4 that we've got slotted. Janna's working on that behind the scenes right now. And man, we've got some cool adventures set up and planned, and we're just going to start doing a lot more video first in terms of the show. So for those Those of you may not know, so even Apple Podcasts, for instance, they are now getting aggressive in turning video first in their format. So you're now going to be able to actually watch most of the podcasts that people consume. You're going to be able to see it in video form there. You've already been able to do that on Spotify.
[00:02:17.290] - Brandon Reece
For those of you that have followed YouTube a bit, we've always kind of tended to think of it as secondary. And so the team behind the scenes has been in a scramble getting all those shows uploaded and up to date. So I think we're about 10 behind now from being live on YouTube. So anyways, For those of you that haven't been paying attention visually to what's happening in the studio, a lot has happened and we're really excited about it. So stay tuned for that. And if you're not already following us on YouTube or tend to watch the show, go there, check it out. It's kind of fun to kind of see some of the physical banter that happens during the show. We probably won't have any like circus midgets or anything too out crazy, but who knows? You never know what you're gonna run into.
[00:02:55.430] - Chris Nordyke
I've been doing most of my consumption on YouTube lately. Yeah, like I, I've been doing a lot less bouncing between the apps and just like hanging in the tube. Yeah, most of I mean, a lot of the podcasts I listen to are like Diary of a CEO, the Chris Williamson with Modern Wisdom. Yeah, I listen to his stuff a lot. Yeah. Jonathan Bae, who's a philosopher— Bae, I'm not sure how he pronounced his last name. It's all on YouTube. I mean, everybody's on YouTube, right? And I like being able, if I want, if I'm working or working out, to be able to glance at the video and stuff like that.
[00:03:25.590] - Brandon Reece
So I kind of like seeing who's talking, to be honest.
[00:03:29.090] - Chris Nordyke
Like, and then sometimes I'll just put in my pocket and I'll go on to my workout or whatever I'm doing. But, but yeah, I agree.
[00:03:34.660] - Brandon Reece
Okay, man, where are you taking us today? I know you came in ripping with an idea.
[00:03:38.760] - Chris Nordyke
Well, I wouldn't say ripping, but it's an idea. I just kind of a little bit of a vulnerable share. We talked about what the topic is going to be. It's going to be love and marriage. I've just had so many— well, I had the conference in San Antonio, Core Collective, and inevitably when I'm at conferences, I end up peeling off with different friends and clients and whatever, and we always end up getting into good conversations, whether it's over dinner or on the patio at night. And things always come back to, okay, well, how's— all right, let's Enough about business.
[00:04:07.880] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:04:08.260] - Chris Nordyke
How's the rest of life, right? Yeah. And I just think that we often don't talk enough about marriage, and especially amongst business owners. I think there's just so much, um, we're carrying that our marriage relationships are often the first to suffer, you know, along with kids and everything else. So I just think we should talk about it more. You know, we had a big vacation to Alaska. Yeah, it was kind of— it was kind of sort of a vacation, you know, that started out with My son's up there, so we wanted to visit him halfway through his summer, roughly. And then we found out we get a friends and family discount since he's an employee. So we started looking at some of these excursions for a 15-year-old. We ended up locking him in on a 9-day backcountry adventure thing. He ended up going ice climbing and just doing all kinds of fun stuff.
[00:04:54.600] - Brandon Reece
So he was doing that while you guys were up there? Yeah, he was participating in that.
[00:04:58.860] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:04:59.000] - Chris Nordyke
So originally we were actually just initially going to throw him on a plane and send him up there. And they're like, well, we can see Jack though. And so We'll go up there with him. And then Kara ended up kind of building this whole itinerary for us. We stayed at this glamping spot. In fact, I'd love to maybe see if they want to be a sponsor at some point. We'd come do— we'd do like an onsite tour and stuff. But we went to this place that was owned by the guide company that Simon, my younger son, went out on. It's called Alpenglow, and it's this glamping setup where they have like 10 of these kind of military-style canvas tents.
[00:05:33.830] - Brandon Reece
Yeah, like GP Medium or something.
[00:05:35.400] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:05:35.900] - Chris Nordyke
And they're all facing the Matanuska Glacier, which is one of the bigger glaciers in Alaska. And this glacier, like this river of ice, just flows all the way to where it terminates in this little valley. And all of these tents face the glacier. And then there's this— I mean, God, Alaska is mountains everywhere.
[00:05:55.890] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:05:56.530] - Chris Nordyke
And I always brag to my friends who are in like other states about how we've got a bunch of 10,000-plus-foot peaks like an hour and a half from our house, you know, and And it really is. Oregon's amazing. But in Alaska, there's 10,000-foot-plus peaks everywhere. And then of course, Denali. We actually got some pretty clear glimpses. The weather was perfect. We were up there. So Denali, 21,000 feet, tallest mountain in the United States. Impressive, dude. I mean, a bunch of 10,000, 12,000, 14,000-foot peaks up there, like 5,000-foot peaks everywhere. Whereas we have Mary's Peak. Yeah, here to like my left. At 4,300 feet. That's our big one close to our house.
[00:06:37.590] - Brandon Reece
Mount Hood's 12,000, almost 12,000. So you're talking about 2x basically the tallest mountain in Oregon.
[00:06:44.090] - Chris Nordyke
Unbelievable. It was just so, so grand and whatever. So, you know, we ended up— Kara carved out this itinerary. Alpenglow, that glamping spot, is really close to Sheep Mountain Lodge where my son was at. And so we spent a night at that lodge, and then we spent a night at Alpenglow, and then we drove to Ollie, and we spent 4 or 5 days car camping there. It was amazing. And we somehow managed to get perfect weather too, because we were warned. We came with our rain jackets and all the things, and we had almost no rain the whole time.
[00:07:14.960] - Brandon Reece
That's awesome.
[00:07:15.410] - Chris Nordyke
So we lucked out. So where I want to start is, hopefully other people can relate to this, but, you know, we had this 10-day trip with Kara and I. We had moments with both of my boys, but it was mostly just us in between these other visits. And I was commenting to another married buddy of mine just how By the end of it, Kara and I were kind of, you know, kind of grinding on each other, like, and not in a good way. And, um, and it was just like we started to— we had some squabbles about just the normal things that come up for us. And it was just interesting to reflect on that after 25 years. I feel like most people, when they go on vacations, they take the Instagram photos and all you see is just how happy they are and how in love they are and how awesome they are doing these cool things.
[00:07:59.990] - Brandon Reece
And I made it look like this is an everyday weekend. Yeah, in the life of the Nordikes. Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:05.570] - Chris Nordyke
And we're just so in love and we have a perfect marriage and everything else. And I was telling this buddy, he's like, oh yeah, I totally know what you're talking about. In fact, he said, you know, usually like after 3 or 4 days we start to feel some of that tension. That made me feel a little bit better, like maybe we're somewhat normal. But it just kind of sent me off, and I was just curious to stoke this with you, you know, just kind of what your experience has been. But I was reflecting on the squabbles that we have, and in Kara and I's marriage, and I've kind tested the waters with Kara. I know she's pretty comfortable with me talking about this more broadly, but like most couples, what are the big squabbles that people get into? Money. Yeah, you know, some couples fight about money. Money, sex, parenting.
[00:08:45.110] - Brandon Reece
Yeah, right. Fortunately, Janna and I have never fought on any of those, any of those things, so we're fine.
[00:08:48.710] - Chris Nordyke
But well, I just thought you'd be like a perfect like edge case.
[00:08:51.830] - Brandon Reece
Totally compare the example that you should pursue. Yes.
[00:08:55.070] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah, like I think last time I evaluated, we're probably about 70% of the way towards the Brandon and Janna standard.
[00:09:00.870] - Brandon Reece
That's right. Yeah. But it's a hard, it's a hard flag to bear. You know, the best part is Janet engineers the show now. So I'm like, I'm thinking to myself, hmm, this is going to change the dynamic.
[00:09:11.420] - Chris Nordyke
I know.
[00:09:11.600] - Chris Nordyke
I was going to say, yeah, Janet's in studio with us now. It's fun. She's our young Jamie.
[00:09:15.850] - Brandon Reece
Yeah, that's right.
[00:09:16.750] - Chris Nordyke
If you follow the Joe Rogan Show.
[00:09:18.570] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:09:18.960] - Chris Nordyke
And so I was looking back over this week and I think it was as I was driving into the office one day, or maybe it was my shower time. And I was just like, gosh, you know, will we ever get to a point where we go away for a week or 2 weeks vacation and it's just bliss and there's nothing else, right? You know, for us, it's always been— sex has always been our thing. And I feel really lucky and grateful that we're very compatible in most of the ways. But like, like with many couples, I think there's a differential in frequency and drive and all that kind of stuff. And, and, uh, and my testosterone's been climbing back up, so it's, uh, you've been putting fuel in the tank. I've been working on that. And so, you know, that's just like— I think all couples have this mind minefield that they learn to navigate. And I'm really grateful because Kara and I, even though we do have that minefield, we've learned to talk about the mines and we kind of know where they're at. And when we're walking together, it's like when we see a mine approaching, we've learned how to be really honest and talk through that.
[00:10:14.860] - Chris Nordyke
And yet they're still there. Yeah, you know. And so it's like, here's a scenario where we're in Alaska, we're car camping— not the most ideal circumstances for romance for most people. And so there's just that element that's present. And I, in hindsight, I was thinking about it.
[00:10:30.990] - Brandon Reece
There's—
[00:10:31.810] - Chris Nordyke
I think what I came away with was just this realization that if I look back over our marriage 25 years ago versus the last 5 years, it's a completely different story. Yeah, like our life, but in all ways, our sex life, all of that stuff is just a completely different world. It's so much better. And in fact, like the last few years, across the board, like just the way we talk and, and like spending time together, all of those things. And the sex has just continued to get better and better. And I think I've talked to you about this, a lot of it's just been through honesty. Yeah, just like both of us developing the courage to be more and more honest with each other in the area of sex, but everything else where there's been hurt feelings, getting honest faster, you know. Yeah, and not wallowing in it or kind of doing the whole kind of disconnect. And for me, it's kind of embarrassing to say so, but I have this way that I'll sometimes kind of pout, you know, when, when like there's a disconnect and I'm not feeling heard or I'm not appreciated or whatever my issue is.
[00:11:32.970] - Chris Nordyke
And we've started to kind of learn how to more quickly—
[00:11:36.000] - Chris Nordyke
yeah—
[00:11:36.330] - Chris Nordyke
get out of that, right?
[00:11:37.200] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah, yeah.
[00:11:37.840] - Chris Nordyke
But this, just this idea that it gets better but it doesn't get easier. Yeah. And I was just kind of contending with that, just this idea that I think if somebody really, really wants to have a deep connection, a really honest, deep deep authentic connection with their spouse, I think it can continually get better and better. And that's been Kara and I's experience. And yet at the very same time, it doesn't get easier.
[00:12:01.420] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:12:01.830] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah. But I don't hear people talk about that very much.
[00:12:04.010] - Brandon Reece
Yeah. You know, it's funny that timing is hilarious. And I know, you know, again, Janna is our engineer, will be able to, you know, attest to this. So I think the easier thing is a little shocking because I think we would collectively say the same thing is that You know, Jan has had a saying that every 7 years, basically, you become basically a different person. And there might be some foundational stuff that remains the same. Like, I can see themes that have been true my whole life, but 7 years of exposure to life, exposure to losses and gains, exposure to failures, exposure to wins, new relationships coming and going, kids, parts of marriage. Like, there's so much that you experience in 7 to 10 years that if you were not to change, that would fundamentally say something's wrong. You know what I mean? And so this idea that you shift that much or that you become like very different people in terms of worldview, it's no wonder that a lot of marriages don't make it. Like, imagine, like, that was part of like Janna and I's story when we first got married. Our parents were adamant because we were babies, we were like 20, you know, and they're saying like, you don't even know each other yet.
[00:13:11.830] - Brandon Reece
Like, you don't even know what you're signing up for. And it's funny because two things can be true simultaneously is they were right and Well, just like business or any other journey, you don't know until you do it. So it's like, yes, that's true. And at the same time, but that's how you learn is that you end up taking the steps and going through it anyways. So, you know, Jan and I are going to be 30 years in December. That's a long time, man. And we've outlasted any friend group that we're a part of. We've been married essentially longer. All of our family, we've been married essentially longer than all of them except for a couple sets of grandparents.
[00:13:46.650] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:13:47.440] - Brandon Reece
And so we're just in uncharted territory in terms of our own sphere of influence. But we— I think we would both say, I'll have to check with Janna later, that it's gotten better and better and better, and that we've had moments, and I think more recently, where collectively it's been really rad, kind of across all the pillars. But, and just like you said, it doesn't get easier. Well, not that long ago, we're on the back porch and Janna has a come-to-Jesus conversation with me, and I'm kind of perplexed, to be honest, because in my mind I'm, I'm looking at our marriage journey collectively, I'm thinking, god dang, dude, like, this is the best I think it's ever been. Like, you know, and yet she does have this thing that we need to address and work through because it's not optimal, it's not the best it could be or as good as it could be. And so that presents a challenge. And I think what you're saying, or part of what I'm hearing, is the not getting easier part is it's like, as you do more work— so first off, I not very many men in general and marriages are working that diligently at it.
[00:14:47.990] - Brandon Reece
I think most of us, if we're super honest, is we're dumping a ton of time and energy into developing skills and systems and disciplines everywhere in our life. And a lot of times the last place that's getting any element of that kind of attention is at home.
[00:15:02.990] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:15:03.390] - Brandon Reece
And so that, like, just, we got to call that out because that's a reality.
[00:15:06.460] - Chris Nordyke
Oh yeah.
[00:15:06.780] - Brandon Reece
And I'm in that zone sometimes. I'm not saying I'm always awesome, but you and I And part of our accountability in both our business relationship and friendship is that we've said that that's important. We need to hold each other accountable to that. So we do point to that often. But what I'm trying to say here is, is that part of what makes it difficult is if you then are a couple that's putting time and energy in and you are investing that way, you also get to realize it can get better.
[00:15:31.710] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:15:32.190] - Brandon Reece
And so part of the challenge is, is that I think this is true with anything. Your vision expands when you recognize or experience something you may not have before. And I think, man, this could go a million directions. I think this is part of what creates a constant state of dissatisfaction too, right? But point being is that when you do have some level of gain or growth in your marriage and you begin to look to your left and right and say, wow, we're not perfect, we got a long ways to go, but man, we're doing some pretty cool shit together. Well, then you also realize, well, if we got this far, there's more.
[00:16:06.420] - Chris Nordyke
The other thing I've noticed about it too, and why I think this whole never gets easier piece is real, is that the deeper of a connection you build, The less excuse you have, and what I mean by that is we know each other really well. And so when we commit offenses, oh sure, offend or irritate or frustrate the other, it's, I think, the weight of it. It stings a little bit more because like when one of us feels unappreciated or neglected or unseen, not paid attention to, maybe for even a day or two, it's like these things, these emotions just spark. And they feel so much heavier because, like, hey, you know this about me, right? Why does this continue to be a problem when we know all these things about each other? Yeah, right.
[00:16:49.500] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:16:50.080] - Chris Nordyke
I just think it's a part of human nature that, one, we as a default behavior are focused on ourselves, and I don't know that that ever completely changes, right? Yeah. It's like my instinct is to protect myself and to try to get what I need, and I can lose awareness of that. Yeah. And I can just get caught up in that desire for what I need and want and It's like on a sliding scale.
[00:17:14.700] - Brandon Reece
If you think about like your kids versus like where you're at now, it's like, it's still true. Like the theme is still consistent is that we, by default, we do tend to look out for ourselves first.
[00:17:25.320] - Chris Nordyke
And, you know, like you and I have talked about this in that Heart of the Matter talk we've given on stage a couple of times, like these file folders that we pull. Like Kara and I got in a little spat this morning and it was just, I think in some ways the topics and the sources of the conflict become smaller and more, you know, it's like we aren't having big arguments about I mean, I don't even know what the big argument would be around sex, but like, people get really frustrated, as some people do, on money. It's never really been our thing, but people get into really big fights about how we're spending or saving or debt, you know, we're taking on or stuff like that. But it's like, I think the longer we're together, the things that really fire us up and kind of separate us is little stuff. Like, this morning we were having a conversation. I don't even remember the exact genesis of it, right? But I ended up, I think, kind of triggering her. I hate that word, but, but like, I ended up sparking something inside of her that was tied to like our first 10 years of marriage.
[00:18:22.370] - Chris Nordyke
Like something I said like really irritated and brought something up for her that to me, as she started kind of, kind of getting upset and flustered, I'm like, what is going on here? What did I say? And finally, after about 45 minutes of conversation, like our whole coffee time, She was able to articulate kind of what was going on inside of her, and I was like, oh shit, well, okay, that's not so bad. I get that.
[00:18:46.240] - Brandon Reece
Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:46.980] - Chris Nordyke
But it's like, for us, dude, it's taken 25 years for us to get to this point where I feel like I— the same thing with her. I mean, she's really committed to this as well. There's a lot of awkward hanging in the pocket long enough in the offense and in the awkwardness and in like my ego being like, this isn't true, like I didn't mean it that way. Like, of me just keeping that stuff to myself long strong enough, and she has to do the same thing, to just like listen for understanding, to just like— because everything that comes out at the front end of these squabbles is so offensive to me and to her. It takes us a while to kind of walk the path together to where finally I'm like, oh, okay, I see why.
[00:19:30.120] - Brandon Reece
Finding mutual ground. Yes, mutual understanding, maybe.
[00:19:33.710] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah, for her to understand me, or for Yeah, for me to understand her.
[00:19:37.720] - Chris Nordyke
And I don't know, I don't even know what the point of this is necessarily or who this potentially helps, but I think I just more and more as I get older and I have more friends and I'm more committed to, to like kind of having more deep kind of heartfelt conversations with buddies of mine and stuff, I just realized we don't talk about this stuff in our culture.
[00:19:54.470] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:19:55.050] - Chris Nordyke
And so the net effect of that is I think a lot of us run around thinking that we have, pardon me, but kind of a fucked up marriage or we're struggling in a unique way. Yeah. That like, you know, people might look at Brandon and Janna and be like, oh, man, they've really got it all figured out. And maybe you do, but right, this is, this is the thing though, is like there's so much pressure to convey to everybody else that we're okay, we're good, or we're awesome.
[00:20:20.440] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:20:20.920] - Chris Nordyke
When in reality none of us are. Yeah. That's more and more my conviction is that all of us, no matter how pretty the Instagram photos and how, how cool the places are that we travel and the photos we take of ourselves together.
[00:20:34.380] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:20:34.910] - Chris Nordyke
There's still all of this underneath it.
[00:20:38.940] - Chris Nordyke
Are you a business that's under $5 million in sales and you're just now getting ready to try and scale your company up and hit some of those targets you've always wanted to hit? But now you've got to build a sales team, or maybe you just hired your first sales rep, but you don't really know how to manage them. Like, how do you manage, lead, train, develop a sales rep? Floodlight has a solution for you now so we can actually assign your sales rep a turnkey VP of sales that will help them create a sales blueprint, their own personal sales plan for your market. They'll have weekly one-on-ones with that sales rep to coach, mentor them, hold them accountable to the plan. And they'll also have a monthly owner's meeting where they'll meet with you or your general manager and review the progress of that sales rep, their plan to actual results, what kind of performance improvement they're working on with them. Also let them know, hey, you might— they're doing really well. Maybe we should think of hiring a second second sales rep, they're going to have that one-to-one advice for you as an owner or senior leader on the team as well.
[00:21:32.550] - Chris Nordyke
How great would that be to have a bolt-on sales manager for your one sales rep, and it's only $2,500 a month? If you're interested in talking more about that, reach out. Let's grab some time and let's talk shop. Our Floodlight clients this last year in 2024 generated over $250 million in revenue, supported by, advised by an industry expert who's owned and operated a business just like you. So take action. Don't kick the can down the road. Start with our business health and value assessment and let's unlock the next chapter of your success story.
[00:22:06.810] - Brandon Reece
You and I were talking about some kind of author or something, and they were referencing kind of State of Men specifically and how there's just a lot of suffering and silence.
[00:22:16.730] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:22:17.060] - Brandon Reece
And of course, that's this individual's perspective. He's trying to raise awareness about kind of men, emotional state.
[00:22:23.920] - Chris Nordyke
Get it.
[00:22:24.500] - Brandon Reece
Yeah, definitely valuable. I think it is something that needs more airtime.
[00:22:27.720] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah, well, most men live their lives in a state of quiet desperation.
[00:22:30.370] - Brandon Reece
Yeah, quiet desperation. And you know what, but the reality of it is, like, I won't go through details, but kind of just thinking back to Janna and I's kind of more recent little exchange is, well, she could be. And that's what's happening more times than not, is that the partner is suffering in silence. Yeah, they're ignoring. They may be telling themselves, this shouldn't bother me, I shouldn't care about this, I'm being too much, I'm too emotional. Whatever the thing is. But the reality of it is, is that what I'm trying to do more times than not is understand that there's a genuine want for experiencing the best that we can and that the pursuit of that is worth the hard stuff. Yeah. And it's, it's funny because I think when I think about business, you know, you and I, for maybe obvious, maybe not so obvious depending on how outside of the circle you are with you and I, We've had to make some decisions around Floodlight and some other things to get honest about what is the thing that we're trying to accomplish?
[00:23:29.280] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:23:29.830] - Brandon Reece
And what kind of hard or short-term pain are you willing to go through to experience that? And so for context on that, like for me, it's like, do I want to make gobs of money? Sure. Do I want lots of assets and resources? Yeah. Do I want the ego thing that says, gosh, look at how great this guy is based on what's on his wrist or what he drives? Yes, I do want all those things. But what I'm assessing now at 50 is I'm not willing to give up certain things to experience that. However, to have a great marriage, to be seen as and respected by my kids, to be prepared to leave a beginning legacy with grandchildren, I'm willing to sacrifice certain things and suffer certain pain to experience that.
[00:24:16.950] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:24:17.660] - Brandon Reece
And I think that ultimately what happens is there's kind of a I mean, trying not to turn this into a 2-step program by any means, but, but there's this element of first, I think men and women have to decide, do you really want to experience a long-term marriage? Do you want the relationship that you have with your partner to be the best version of that relationship? Not based on Instagram Reels. Yeah, but based on people that you know, that you trust, that you respect, that you believe has wisdom. And when you look at their marriage and what they're experiencing they have when no one else is around, what they have when the bills don't get paid the way you want, when they have what the business can't provide. Like, if you see that and that has real value to you, then you have to say— first, you have to identify that there's some element of a North Star, and then you have to identify, like, what are you willing to do to get it? Because I think what happens is, is that people in their mind— and not shitting on anybody— but like, people often look at stuff— a job, a role, a title— I'm an entrepreneur, I'm not an entrepreneur, and they overly romanticize and undervalue what it requires to get the thing or have the title or be the thing.
[00:25:32.380] - Brandon Reece
And I think we do that in our marriages. We like the idea of having a great marriage, but we misunderstand what it requires to obtain it.
[00:25:40.480] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah, counting the cost.
[00:25:41.600] - Brandon Reece
And we don't— like, we haven't properly assessed that we really want that thing, like want it bad enough. And then do you understand what it would require?
[00:25:49.790] - Chris Nordyke
I think often we're just not aware of how involved our ego is. Oh man, in these marriage exchanges. Like, you know, Kara and I— I'm an external processor. You know this about me. I'm a talk, talk our way through it, right? She's an internal processor, right? So she's listening to me talk about what's going on for me. Like, her best scenario is she would like leave the room for an hour, maybe go out on the back deck, kind of think about it for a while, then come back and re-engage in the conversation. But for me, as an external processor, it drives me nuts.
[00:26:21.370] - Brandon Reece
No air gap, right?
[00:26:22.430] - Chris Nordyke
It's like, no, no, no, no, let's get this on. Like, I'm willing to talk about whatever you need to talk about. Like, let's Talk now. Like, let's just work through this and then we can be happy again. We can be connected. We can go watch our show. We can, you know, like, we can go back to life being great again. Let's problem solve this, you know? And that's— and there's something, if I'm not careful, my ego can get really riled up because I don't know, I think that's the best way, you know? It's like, no, let's work through this now. Yeah, you know, let's just really— I'll talk about whatever you need to and whatever.
[00:26:52.550] - Brandon Reece
But well, and how often in a situation like that then are you forcing Kara to communicate or respond?
[00:26:59.810] - Chris Nordyke
Exactly.
[00:27:00.630] - Brandon Reece
In a way that is going to be more hurtful.
[00:27:02.890] - Chris Nordyke
Yes.
[00:27:03.450] - Brandon Reece
Because she hasn't had time to do what is required for her to communicate better. Yeah. And so however it comes out is, I mean, it's raw. And sometimes honest is good. Honesty is always good. Raw is not always good. You know, it's that difference between transparency, like full transparency and honesty.
[00:27:20.600] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:27:21.090] - Brandon Reece
Like you can be honest all the time, but there are certain ways that the conversation should go that are healthier than others.
[00:27:27.100] - Chris Nordyke
Well, and I'll be really honest too. One aspect of this is I've been a sales guy my whole life. Life, basically. I mean, for the last 25 years, right? And this can show up in our conversations where, like, I can get into a mode of kind of handling objections. Oh yeah, you know, and like, well, yeah, but look at it this way, you know? And like, kind of— and in some case, I feel like I'm better at it now. I'm more aware that I do this, right? And I can be more conscious of it. But, you know, when she's got a beef of some kind with me, you know, sometimes I can end up sort of talking up a storm. She feels just kind of overwhelmed by the case I'm making Yeah, I'm like forcing her to think and act and respond in the moment.
[00:28:05.560] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:28:05.820] - Chris Nordyke
And so she, she feels even more overwhelmed, right? So this is just one of the dynamics that we, we struggle with. Yeah. But we've gotten better at it though. She's made me very aware of— yeah, I've, you know, it took me about 10 years, but mine's similar.
[00:28:20.870] - Brandon Reece
I don't know if it's selling, it's just that Challenger. Yeah, I can get really good at conveying my perspective Yeah, and then people can—
[00:28:29.490] - Chris Nordyke
over—
[00:28:29.650] - Brandon Reece
I feel overwhelmed. Yeah, like I think in some ways, like, I don't want to speak for my wife, but she's communicated something to the extent of like it diminishes her perspective. Like I've communicated in such a way, like built my case so well. Yeah, because I'm pretty articulate that it then makes it difficult for her to like stand her ground. Yeah, because like, and I don't know if she would say that like she's all of a sudden second-guessing her perspective as much as she just is overwhelmed by how well I came at argument that she feels ill-equipped to really communicate what I need to hear because I've kind of overwhelmed. So it's less about selling and it's just more like that's— I fight for my cause.
[00:29:10.670] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:29:11.080] - Brandon Reece
And I'm pretty damn good at verbally standing up for myself.
[00:29:14.030] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:29:14.450] - Brandon Reece
And that can overwhelm the other person, you know. It diminishes. Well, yeah, it's not good, you know.
[00:29:20.040] - Chris Nordyke
Well, that's definitely been a dynamic in our life too. It's, you know, I think the net effect is I got my point and my perspective across and she ended up feeling unseen.
[00:29:30.080] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:29:30.480] - Chris Nordyke
And unheard and not understood. Yeah, I've had the same issue with my daughter. You know, my daughter has often told me, she's like, Dad, like, I feel like when I bring up a problem or a frustration I have with you, or an issue from a previous conversation or something, that you're like super quick to explain why it's not true and it's not real. You know, like, she conveys like a way I made her feel or something I said.
[00:29:52.910] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:29:53.190] - Chris Nordyke
And my instinct is to jump to, whoa, that's totally not what I Yeah. And to me, it's like perfectly logical that, yeah, sometimes you misunderstand each other, and this is one of those cases.
[00:30:04.880] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:30:05.440] - Chris Nordyke
And so now that you know that that's not true—
[00:30:07.940] - Brandon Reece
yeah, we're good—
[00:30:08.750] - Chris Nordyke
now I just want you to be okay.
[00:30:10.410] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:30:10.830] - Chris Nordyke
Like, that's my objective is, oh gosh, honey, I'm really sorry, that's totally not what I meant.
[00:30:16.190] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:30:16.520] - Chris Nordyke
And so now will you please be okay? Yeah. And not be angry with me, irritated, feel sad, all the things, and let's just go have a nice dinner now.
[00:30:23.880] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:30:24.600] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:30:26.050] - Chris Nordyke
And it's taken me a long time to realize in a lot of cases it's actually not about what's true, you know? Yeah, that's been a very hard thing for me to learn and accept in relationships is like— and of course we hear like the talking heads and stuff talk about it. Would you rather be right or would you rather be connected? Would you rather have a good marriage? Rather be right, you know? And so it's like we know these things, and yet there's just sometimes it's so subtle, our ego is just so quick to be like like, well, yeah, but that's not what I meant. I'm not wrong. Like, nothing's wrong with me. Yeah, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings because that's not what I meant. That's not how I said it, you know.
[00:31:03.370] - Brandon Reece
Well, it's funny that you say that because I think one of the things that we've— let's see, I'm trying to— how I want to put this. So one of the things that we've tried to prioritize with HHB is that we really believe fairly strongly— believe fairly strongly, is that even— we believe strongly that it's very difficult to successfully compartmentalize. Yeah, right. Like, we are still showing up all of who we and all the buckets and the good things, the baggage, the bad things. And so you can't act as if those things aren't overlapping. And it's funny how we continue to default, though, to this attempt to compartmentalize. Example being like what you're talking about. If you and I were talking about employee engagement right now or customer success, you would be all about the fact that perception is reality. Oh, totally right. Like, it would not be an argument. You'd be like, hey, the customer the customer's perception is the reality. So what are we doing to control that perception, therefore controlling that reality? Right. But it's funny because as soon as we start talking about at-home relationships, now all of a sudden perception is not reality and it's not okay for someone to have a perception that's different than ours.
[00:32:11.560] - Brandon Reece
And that's where what you're talking about comes into play. Like, and I do this too, like I want to show the facts. I want to show it this time frame. You said X, I said X, right? This isn't right. This is black. This is white. But the reality of it is, is is my son, my daughter, my wife's perception from the experience is their reality.
[00:32:29.310] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:32:29.570] - Brandon Reece
And it's just funny. Again, it's like we just have this tendency, or the opposite can be true. Like, at home we understand we have to give and take, but then you come to work and you treat people under your leadership as if they don't have the same basic human behaviors as the people in your personal sphere too. It's just funny. Like, I think it's, it's sometimes we we don't do a great job of trying to communicate, articulate this value system that we have, where the HHB Show was built on the sense of— and I think sometimes people listen to our show, and if you just have not been consistent and you jump around, you're probably going like, what is the goal? Like, because sometimes these guys are talking about money, and other days they're talking about engagement, going hunting. One time they're talking— it's because we are full people. We have head, heart, and boot structures. We do things, we produce things, we behave in certain ways, we have heart struggles, we fight things in our brain, the way that we process and see the world. Like, you can't segregate those things.
[00:33:32.860] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:33:33.360] - Brandon Reece
And I think part of what, you know, we just try to do a good job with the show is understanding that and getting into all these buckets. Here, I'll get off the preacher wagon here. But so I think like an encouragement for myself and for you is is let's just try to hold on that people are people. Our spouses are still people, our employees are still people, our kids. Look, we still have to look at the engagements that we're having both professionally and personally and just understand like, what's the human element here?
[00:34:01.460] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:34:01.760] - Brandon Reece
What I mean? Yeah. Responding to that, you know, versus the other.
[00:34:05.140] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah. It reminds me, and I brought some a bunch of times, probably some people are like, oh, you're just going to talk about Jim Dethmer again. But it reminds me for a while that I was really hot on him. Now I'm on the Savannah Bananas.
[00:34:16.050] - Brandon Reece
Yeah, man, you are.
[00:34:16.870] - Chris Nordyke
Jesse Cole. I get latched onto these guys mainly because they—
[00:34:20.960] - Brandon Reece
Does he have a fan club? Because I feel like you'd be at the top of the heap.
[00:34:23.510] - Chris Nordyke
I don't know. I think a lot of it's ego because they're saying something that I already think and I'm like, "Oh yeah, that must mean I'm smart." Damn right. Yeah, whatever. But Jim Dethmer talked about this in that Feedback Rich Environment podcast on The Knowledge Project. And he basically said, "What we tend to do is we tend to filter people's feedback." We're judging, first of all, is it true? We're judging the deliverer of that message. Are they as educated as me? Are they as smart as me? Or have they been at the company long enough to really know what they're talking about? We have all these subconscious filters that we apply to feedback from our people. And I'm sure all of this applies to personal relationships too. But he said, and this has always stuck with me, he said, "The best leaders are ones that when they receive a piece of feedback, they drop the filters and they simply ask how." How does this apply to me?
[00:35:14.340] - Brandon Reece
Yeah, I remember you talking about—
[00:35:15.700] - Chris Nordyke
or this situation or our business or whatever.
[00:35:17.950] - Brandon Reece
How is this true?
[00:35:18.590] - Chris Nordyke
So not is it true, but beginning at this place of how is this true, or how it's not, right?
[00:35:25.020] - Chris Nordyke
Perhaps.
[00:35:25.500] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And even as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about this exchange that Kara and I had this morning, and I had a particular— I was locked in on why this wasn't true, or why whatever, why what she was saying didn't make sense, or why we were just missing each other.
[00:35:42.630] - Brandon Reece
Yeah.
[00:35:43.430] - Chris Nordyke
And I, like, I felt understood, you know, it's usually part of it is I feel misunderstood. I feel like she's hearing one thing and I'm trying to put a different thing, whatever. And I think it's just so helpful to step back and, you know, with Jim Dethmer's advice and be like, okay, how is what she's saying true? And what can I take from this? What can I understand about this, about how she's experiencing me?
[00:36:06.130] - Brandon Reece
That's probably a good place to hang and like close it up because, yeah, I think that's something that somebody could put into action tomorrow.
[00:36:13.270] - Chris Nordyke
Yeah.
[00:36:13.670] - Brandon Reece
And it's a good baby step.
[00:36:14.950] - Chris Nordyke
I had the same thing yesterday. We have a referral partner that we work with. And we had a little bit of a snafu that unfolded. It was just one of these series of unfortunate events where it's like I screwed up on something and then the universe screwed up and then my ego got involved and then it's possible their egos got involved. And I was listening to this conversation and I was feeling so defensive. And even now as we're processing this, I'm thinking about that conversation and I'm like, oh, I missed an opportunity. I missed an opportunity to really just sit in their input and really just process, okay, yeah, how is that true? Oh, it's definitely true. Yeah. What they're saying is the spirit of— Yeah. Like what's the spirit of the thing the person is saying versus the fact or the individual details? Like what's the overarching perception of the video, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like what's the overall message or the hashtag and how can I learn from that? That? God, it's really hard, dude. It's so embarrassing when you fail to do that and you get out of that meeting and then you take that perspective and you're like, "Oh, I could have done that.
[00:37:22.540] - Chris Nordyke
I could do that differently. Can I hit replay?" Right?
[00:37:27.200] - Brandon Reece
Yeah, unfortunately.
[00:37:29.400] - Chris Nordyke
Now it's just all going to be about apologizing. "Hey honey, sorry, I was caught up in my head judging you and what you were saying. I I wasn't listening very well. Geez, sorry.
[00:37:41.770] - Brandon Reece
What about this is true?
[00:37:43.970] - Chris Nordyke
What about this is true? I've thought about it. Turns out this, this, and this was totally true. And you were, uh, hey, how can I make it up to you? How do we hit refresh?
[00:37:52.600] - Brandon Reece
Okay, love it, dude.
[00:37:53.740] - Chris Nordyke
Well, we're all failing forward in one way or another, so we are loving marriage.
[00:37:57.600] - Brandon Reece
That's right. All right, thanks for hanging out with us. All right, all right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Heart and Boots.
[00:38:06.720] - Chris Nordyke
And if you're enjoying the show, you love this episode, please hit follow, formerly known as subscribe, write us a review, or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.